Making the Transition from Inside to Outside the Academy
With Susan Basalla and Maggie Debelius
Authors of So What Are You Going to Do with That?: A Guide to Career-Changing for MAs and PhDs
Discussion edited by Laura Barlament
July 23-27, 2001
The following Guest Speaker Discussion originally took place on WRK4US in July of the year 2001. Because WRK4US has a confidentiality policy, all names and email addresses have been altered or removed, except for the moderator's and the Guest Speakers'.
The discussion can be read in two ways- by simply scrolling down and reading the whole thing, or by clicking on the topical links below, which take you to specific places within the discussion. The discussion can also be printed out in its entirety for your reading convenience.
Special thanks to Laura Barlament, who volunteered her time to edit this discussion and prepare it for posting on the web. If you are interested in editing a future discussion, your help will be much appreciated; email Paula Foster, WRK4US List Manager, at pfchambers@sbcglobal.net
HOW TO MAKE A MID-CAREER CAREER CHANGE
HOW WELL DO ACADEMICS FIT INTO THE BUSINESS WORLD?
UNIVERSITIES' RESPONSIBILITY FOR PREPARING STUDENTS FOR THE JOB MARKET
POSTACADEMIC CAREERS AND THE OLDER APPLICANT
HOW TO EXPLAIN WHY YOU'RE LEAVING ACADEMIA
EXITING AND REENTERING ACADEMIA: IS IT POSSIBLE?
POSTACADEMIC DISAPPOINTMENTS AND PLEASURES
INFORMATIONAL INTERVIEWING
LONG-DISTANCE NETWORKING
JOB SEARCH FRUSTRATION
RANGE OF POSTACADEMIC JOBS
NEGOTIATING THE BORDER BETWEEN THE ACADEMIC AND NONACADEMIC WORLDS
FREELANCE WORK
HOW TO MANAGE THE TRANSITION TO A POSTACADEMIC CAREER
INSTRUCTIONAL DESIGN
HOW TO DEAL WITH AN UNSUPPORTIVE DEPARTMENT
PUBLISHING AS AN INDEPENDENT SCHOLAR
PRIVATE SCHOOL TEACHING
THANK YOUS
Hello everyone. We're Maggie Debelius and Susan Basalla, authors of So What Are You Going to Do With That?: A Guide to Career-Changing for MAs and PhDs (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2001). We met as graduate students in the Princeton English Department in the mid-90s where we began work on the book. We're pleased to be the latest guest speakers to join the discussion. We'll start by introducing the book and then introduce ourselves.
THE BOOK: So What Are You Going to Do with That?
The heart of So What Are You Going to Do with That? is our 100+ interviews with graduate alumni from all fields, both Ph.D. and ABD, former students and former faculty. We spent two years tracking down people who'd left academia and recording their stories. We also tailored standard career advice for the particular needs of academics looking to make a change. We tackled how-to questions like, "Should I finish my dissertation?", "How do I explain why I left academia?", "How do I turn a c.v. into a resume?", as well as emotional questions, such as, "Will I be bored stupid out there?" and "How do I tell my advisor I want to leave?"
The book grew out of our own career searches. When Sue decided relatively early on that an academic career wasn't for her (more on that later), she tracked down some Princeton graduate alums who had left the academy at various stages of their careers to pursue other paths--and had gone on to become quite successful. Like many of our colleagues, we had this nasty suspicion that leaving the academy constituted failure, but these happy, satisfied alums were anything but failures. We decided that we needed to spread the word about fulfilling lives on the outside and thus the book was born.
I knew that I didn't want to be a professor by my 3rd year of grad school. Academia just wasn't the right place for me. I listened to my friends talk about the jobs they hoped to get, but I couldn't work up any enthusiasm for my own future as an academic. The idea of treading over the same subject matter for 10 more years just depressed me. Being unable to choose where I wanted to live seemed like an extraordinarily high price to pay for an academic job.
So, I finished up my English Ph.D. as quickly as possible, writing an abridged version of my original project with my advisors' blessings. I defended my dissertation in February 1997, and called up a temp agency the next day. Since the temp agency already liked me from previous summers of work, I asked them to place me somewhere interesting where I'd have a chance of being hired full-time. They sent me to the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, and I was hired as a full-time research assistant within three months. That was the turning point. From there, I went on to reporting and editing jobs in Washington, DC and now I work as a content producer for The Motley Fool, a multimedia personal finance company, www.fool.com.
While I was temping, I was also cold-calling graduate alumni and asking them how they made the leap out of academia. Their stories were inspiring -- I had no idea these kinds of Ph.D.'s existed. My department certainly never mentioned the accomplishments of alumni outside academia. But here they were-- smart, happy, and successful. Even better, these Ph.D.'s were all amazingly kind and supportive -- they calmed my fears, helped me with my resume, and offered networking contacts.
The thing I like best about my postacademic career (that's a term we invented as a substitute for "alternative" or "nonacademic" career) is the freedom to change directions and learn new fields. I've never regretted my decision for a minute. And neither did any of the people we interviewed. Academia is just one career among hundreds of thousands of choices. Academics often speak of careers as if there are two choices in life: a) be a professor or b) be anything else in the known universe EXCEPT a professor. That's just silly -- it's a big world out there, and if one career doesn't suit you, there are literally thousands of other options.
What I found especially interesting about most of our interviewees is how many of them continued to pursue the passions that brought them to graduate school in the first place in a different venue. Instead of making U-turns, they just took slightly different paths. Many of them seem to stand at the crossroads where their academic studies meet the rest of the world. And this is exactly where I have often found myself. Having worked as an editor for Time Life Books before beginning my doctoral program, I knew all along that there were interesting careers outside the academy. I continued to work as a freelance writer throughout my graduate program (although some professors discouraged it) so I always had a foot in both worlds.
As Sue and I started working on the book about three years ago, I decided to accept a fulltime postacademic job as Editor-in-Chief at LifeMinders, an internet start-up company. I was hesitant about this because I feared it would delay my dissertation writing even more--but at some point I realized it couldn't get much slower.
Like many of the people we interviewed, I found that an outside job actually sped my dissertation up. Once it was no longer the one overwhelming thing that occupied my brain and my hard drive, I found I could attack it more effectively and managed to finish it last year.
After a few exciting years, the internet company has closed its doors. I actually got laid off and went into labor with my first child on the same day, but that's a different story. A few days after I brought the baby home, I got a call from Georgetown University offering me a position as Director of the Writing Center--which was actually I job I had applied for two and a half years ago (more anecdotal evidence that you can move back and forth between academic and postacademic careers!).
Although I loved my postacademic job, I decided to accept the Georgetown position because it interests me and will allow me to spend some time at home with the baby. I'll continue to straddle the divide and do freelance writing for clients outside the academy. At some point I may return to a job outside a university setting. What the book research as well as my own experience has taught me is that there are a lot of options out there for smart people if you know where to look.
We're happy to talk about any aspect of the academic/postacademic transition, especially the psychological and emotional aspects, which shouldn't be underestimated. We'd also be glad to answer questions on how employers see academics, how to best use your time during grad school, and why you shouldn't worry so much about your advisor. As for the alumni interviews, we'll throw in some of their stories as we answer questions, but in the interest of keeping it short, we won't be able to go into their lives too deeply. (But you can always check out our book for more details about the folks who interest you.)
Thanks for joining us, and let's get started!
HOW TO MAKE A MID-CAREER CAREER CHANGE
RE: Guest Speakers Introduction Message
From: L. W.
I guess I'm somewhat out of step with most of the people on this list and with the guest speakers in that I'm not either a graduate student trying to explore alternative career options nor a newly-minted Ph.D facing multiple adjunct positions and the frustration of not finding a tenure track opportunity. Rather I'm more of a mid-career type. I earned my Ph.D in 1981 and immediately got a three-year terminal position at a major East Coast research university. From there I got a one-year post doctoral research position at another, even more major East Coast research university, and then was hired on a tenure track in the University of Texas System. I've been here ever since, going from Assistant to Associate Professor (I could be a Full Professor, but have chosen not to apply out of fear of cutting down on my ability to move). By most ways of keeping score, I've been both very lucky and successful; I have a very secure academic position and have far exceeded any of my expectations in terms of publishing and other academic productivity.
All that is great, but I'm not happy. One of Sue's comments speaks well to what I perceive as one problem: the geographical immobility. At first living on the Mexican border was culturally interesting and fun, but as time has gone on I find myself wanting to get back to a more urbane existence. In addition, the institutional culture at this branch of the University has changed significantly, making it a professional environment into which I fit less and less well. Over the past several years I've applied for academic positions in more interesting and suitable places, but hit dead ends at every turn. And now I'm wondering if that's really the direction I want to go in anyway. In the course of writing up applications for academic jobs, I've really begun asking myself if, as Sue also pointed out, I want to keep going over the same stuff for another twenty years.
Before entering the academy I had a wide variety of work experiences, ranging from being a janitor to a discount store department manager to a radio station news director to running an auto damage appraisal agency. To a large extent I chose academic life because I found those and the many other jobs that kept me alive through college and graduate school unsatisfying (I still have nightmares in which I find myself working at the clothing sales job I had in college, wondering how I ended up back there). I've also cultivated a lot of what probably are marketable skills while working in the academy: significant computer skills, obviously research skills, supervising both teaching and research assistants, and doing quite a lot of editing and marketing of my own work. The problem is that having been in the academy as long as I have, I've really lost sight of how these skills might be packaged and sold to employers outside the academy. Unlike Sue and Maggie, I don't have a cohort of relatively recent alumni to draw upon, and inasmuch as my graduate university was not nearly as prestigious as Princeton, I doubt that there would be much help there in any case. And then there's the other matter that both Maggie and Sue touch upon, the recurring nightmare I have of suddenly being back where I was when I was 19 and wondering where all the intervening years and experiences went.
I'm looking into making a connection with a career counselor, but I'm wondering what you guys might have to say also. Is there hope for the 50-somethings who've reached an academic dead end and are looking to spend the next twenty years doing something that draws on their academic and life experience without tying them to either their nightmare part-time college job or some similarly chilling alternative? Also, for us 50-somethings, things that don't matter quite so much for most 20- or 30-somethings are critical and must weigh into career decisions. I'm thinking particularly about guaranteed health benefits and fast-track retirement vestiture.
I'll buy your book (via Internet in that there are no book stores within a reasonable distance (another source of dissatisfaction)), but whatever you can offer here will be a great first step.
RE: Guest Speakers Introduction/Mid-Career Professionals
From: Maggie
L. W. and all others concerned with mid-career issues,
One of the really interesting things we discovered in the course of writing the book was how many mid-career career changers we found in the course of our interviews. Some of the people we write about left after a tenure decision didn't go their way, but many decided to leave tenured positions to pursue other opportunities (and, like you, because they wanted more geographic mobility).
As for your particular questions:
- Don't give up on networking. Although we started by contacting Princeton alums, we ended up speaking to graduate alums from all kinds of universities in the course of the project--state, public, small, large, etc. All had interesting stories to tell. And don't feel like you can only contact PhDs from your home institution.
- You bring up some very real concerns about mid-career professionals facing particular issues such as the need for good health and retirement benefits. I think it's always a good idea to try freelance and consulting gigs (most of which can be done from remote) before giving up a secure academic position. That way you can convince a potential employer that you're an indispensable marketer/researcher/writer/editor/fill in the blank--and you won't lose your current employment benefits until someone else is willing to hire you on your own terms.
HOW WELL DO ACADEMICS FIT INTO THE BUSINESS WORLD?
Re: Hiring grad students
From: I. G.
Hi Maggie and Susan
I read your book a few months ago--it was a great read and a nice introduction to the issues. It was also inspiring. I think that one of the things you two did best was to reassure your readers, and you really have a sense of the things that your target audience is worried about.
Two questions for you--one relevant to the discussion, one not so relevant.
First, it seems clear from the discussions in this forum that academics in the humanities have many skills that they could apply elsewhere, and that they are very good at what they do, but they have trouble making the transition to non academic careers. If you two were entrepreneurs, would you consider starting a business that capitalized on these relatively untapped sources of talent, or would you consider it more trouble than it is worth? And if the former, what kind of business could it be?
The second question is for Susan--are you related to George, the famous historian of technology?
Re: Hiring grad students
From: Susan Basalla
I. G.,
Thanks for writing, and I'm so glad that you enjoyed the book! First and most importantly, yes, I'm George Basalla's daughter. :) He retired a few years ago but is still hard at work on his writing.
You asked an interesting hypothetical question -- I'll quote it here: "If you two were entrepreneurs, would you consider starting a business that capitalized on [grad students'] relatively untapped sources of talent, or would you consider it more trouble than it is worth? And if the former, what kind of business?"
Well, let's see. I think that as an entrepreneur I would have only the needs of my company in mind. If a grad student offered a skill I needed despite a lack of experience, then I'd hire them. If a grad student had none of the skills that I needed, I wouldn't hire them.
The other factor in this case would be the interview. You can usually tell pretty quickly whether someone is going to make the transition from academia smoothly when you meet them in person. Are they using academic jargon or the lingo of my business? Have they ever worked outside academia before? Are they asking questions that are relevant to my business? Do they seem nervous about the idea of leaving academia? If someone seems like they're going to have trouble adjusting to the outside world, I would probably not hire them. As you said, it'd probably be too much trouble and they'd be unlikely to stay in the job for long.
The good news is that much of this is under the grad student's control. Getting experience in volunteer or part-time jobs will help you acclimate to the outside world. It's important to make your peace with your decision to work outside before you start interviewing. When you believe you're ready, you'll be able to convince others that you are, too.
UNIVERSITIES' RESPONSIBILITY FOR PREPARING STUDENTS FOR THE JOB MARKET
Subject: Welcome, Maggie and Susan; Question Re: Doctoral Students in the 1990s
From: M. P.
Welcome, Maggie and Susan:
I'm looking forward to following your conversations and reflections over the course of the week ahead. I'm also interested in locating a copy of your book, though we live in Victoria, B.C. and I suspect it may take a bit longer to distribute it in Canada.
At any rate, I want to raise a few questions that I've been pursuing ever since my wife and I first formed a pair of online support networks for graduate students--particularly Ph.D. students--back in 1994. My dissertation research and post-dissertation research has been about the changing nature of the academic profession and academic career opportunities from the perspective of non-tenured faculty and advanced graduate students. My dissertation (1992) addressed the impact of retrenchment on the morale and career opportunities of university professors, and much of my post-doctoral work (collaborating with my wife) has been spent interviewing doctoral students and observing the effects of today's academic labor market on the career prospects of people who have aspired to remain within academia--preferably obtaining tenure-track positions. This interest brought me to recently join Paula's excellent forum.
In my own observations, I have come to the conclusion that in many ways, the 1990s was a decade in which doctoral students were what I call "sacrificial lambs for retrenchment." That is, they were trained at ever-growing numbers in many disciplines, but never told that at the end of the line (i.e. doctoral completion) there were likely few or no jobs for them in the university if they hoped to become professors with a future, rather than adjuncts. Retrenchment in the 1990s forced universities to cut many jobs, and also led to them replacing many retiring faculty positions with adjuncts.
As I write this, I'm keenly aware of the work of English Professor Cary Nelson and the activists in the Graduate Student Caucus of the Modern Language Association who have worked hard to bring this point home---that is, to make universities own up to the facts about graduates not being able to get decent, stable work inside the academy after graduation. Nelson and others have argued that universities have a moral obligation to set students straight about the job market they will likely face. My wife and I worked with Cary to help promote a Graduate Student Bill of Rights through the American Association of University Professors in 1999.
So here are my questions: If it is true that many doctoral students face a future in which they must pursue careers largely outside of academia in order to obtain stable, good-paying employment with some type of future, should not the universities be held accountable for (1) preparing doctoral recipients for alternative careers outside of academe and (2) reducing the excess number of doctoral enrollments to more closely match the true demands within the (ever shrinking) tenure-stream? If universities are at least in part responsible for preparing doctoral recipients for non-academic careers, how can we push their career planning and placement offices to share in this obligation? And finally, do you see a light at the end of the tunnel--are there hopes for a better academic job market for 1990s Ph.D. recipients in the years ahead, or should they all plan to look elsewhere for work?
I realize your own book focuses on the career transition experiences and reflections of students and graduates, but I would be interested in what you and they would probably say in response to my questions.
Thank you for your contributions.
Re: University accountability
From: Susan Basalla
M. P.,
Thanks for your thoughtful questions. I'll summarize the first one quickly and then try to answer them all.
First, you asked: "If it is true that many doctoral students face a future in which they must pursue careers largely outside of academia in order to obtain stable, good-paying employment with some type of future, should not the universities be held accountable for (1) preparing doctoral recipients for alternative careers outside of academe and....if universities are at least in part responsible for preparing doctoral recipients for non-academic careers, how can we push their career planning and placement offices to share in this obligation?"
First, I believe strongly that universities treat adjunct instructors horribly. They abuse the earnest goodwill of young academics by offering them sub-par temporary jobs, and then hold this experience against them when they come before a hiring committee for a tenure-track position. It's a horrible system.
I think the best defense to a rotten job market is getting a great postacademic job. If fewer people take adjunct jobs, the market for them will shrink. In a postacademic job, you'll make more money, have more time, and gain new skills. And you can still apply for academic jobs with no worse stain on your reputation than if you were an adjunct. In fact, I know some schools that consider postacademic experience a bonus. It also makes for a far less desperate and anxious job seeker.
I believe that all grad students need to prepare themselves for postacademic careers from the first day of grad school (preferably by pursuing some part-time job in any field that interests them). I believe it's the individual's responsibility to plan for the possiblity that they won't get a tenure track job -- it's just not something that anyone else can do for you, too personal a choice.
That said, I'm not letting universities off the hook. Universities are deeply entrenched in their ways and hoping for reform isn't an option for any current grad student -- they just can't wait. I would like to see universities gaze more kindly at postacademic career options, however. They could: encourage students to pursue postacademic interests in the summer rather than do their advisor's xeroxing, encourage students to find part-time jobs through the career services office, and cheer the accomplishments of their alumni in BOTH postacademic and academic positions.
Career centers are extremely willing to help, I've found, but are hampered by a lack of enthusiasm from departments. If departments were more supportive, career centers might be able to offer more tailored resources for grad students, or even find funding for a specialized grad student counselor.
As for your questions on the future of the profession, I feel less qualified to tackle those. I agree that it's irresponsible to allow in large numbers of students and tell them they'll have no trouble finding jobs. I also agree that departments should make it extremely clear up front that will likely NOT find academic jobs. And I remember my own wishful thinking very well -- I thought that the warnings I heard were for everyone else. I'm not sure what it will take to even out the imbalance in the academic market in the future, but I'm glad to know that you and others are tackling that question head on.
POSTACADEMIC CAREERS AND THE OLDER APPLICANT
Re: Postacademic careers and the older applicant
From: B. C.
Hello everyone,
My question has to do with the challenges of finding a postacademic job given one's age relative to other applicants. Is it an often-encountered problem that prospective employers (let's say, in the consulting or financial services industry, for argument's sake) would be reluctant to interview or hire an applicant who is, say, 30 years old and a recent Ph.D., as opposed to a "fresh" 22-year-old with a B.A. in economics, or a 25-year-old with an M.B.A.? I think there are ways in which research and teaching skills can be translated into valuable skills in the post-/non-academic world; but I wonder whether you have any thoughts about challenges faced by applicants who may be entering this track at a later stage in their lives.
Re: Postacademic careers and the older applicant
From: Maggie
B. C. and others,
First of all, I have to smile at the notion of a 30-year old PhD being an "older applicant." Sure, you might be older than a 22-year-old fresh out of college, but you're hardly approaching retirement. Try to spin your age as a positive rather than a negative--you're still young enough to be energetic but also mature enough to navigate the postacademic world.
HOW TO EXPLAIN WHY YOU'RE LEAVING ACADEMIA
Re: Packaging a reason for changing careers
From: R. G.
Hi Maggie, Susan, and everyone,
I'm enjoying the discussion so far, and have found your book to be very helpful as I (finally) finish up a dissertation and shift gears to starting a new career.
I've been giving some thought to what I want to say when people ask me, in informational and job interviews, why I'm changing my career direction. I've gotten pretty good at explaining to friends and family the personal reasons for my decision, but a professional setting seems to call for comments about skills and goals rather than feelings and values. My sense is that it's wiser to say something positive about my future goals (even if they're not crystal clear yet) rather than complain about my dissatisfaction with how academics "do business."
So my question really has two parts: 1) do you think it's best not to criticize the university setting at all (versus suggesting that a position as a professor was no longer a good fit and giving reasons)? 2) how would you recommend "packaging" this response for interviewers?
My question overlaps a bit with what you discuss in the book, but since not everyone's seen it yet--and we recently had a discussion on Wrk4Us about this--perhaps you could say more.
re: explaining decision to leave
From: Sue Basalla
Dear R. G.,
Congratulations on finishing up your dissertation - I'm sure most readers of this list know how wonderful it feels to see the light at the end of the tunnel! :)
You asked a great question about how to explain why you're leaving academia to interviewers. (And I'm glad to hear you're doing information interviews too -- they can be a little awkward to negotiate sometimes, but are well worth the effort.)
Sounds like you're already doing a great job with your answer to this question. Short and sincere is your best bet. Don't get into long drawn-out critiques of academia -- if someone has never been in the field, your comments will seem like 10x too much information. You could say that academia was too isolating, too narrow, too abstract, etc. for you. And then add some positive information about yourself: you're too practical, you're too goal-oriented, you're passionate about this other field, you love to write but want to do it for a larger audience....etc.
You can say that the idea of working on the same topic for 10 years just didn't appeal to you -- that's something that anyone who hasn't been an academic will certainly understand. You can say that you felt that academia just wasn't the real world and that you're too practical for that life, although you enjoyed it and learned a lot. You can say it's an interesting world, but just not the right place for you.
If your reason for leaving comes down to feelings and values (and it does for many of us), there's nothing wrong with saying so. That's perfectly acceptable and understandable. I think anyone can understand that -- think about all the lawyers who get burnt out at big firms and go work for non-profits or teach grade school. Lots of people change careers for all kinds of reasons. The key is to convey that you're comfortable with your decision and you looking forward, not backward. And it sounds like you're already there. :) Good luck!
WORKING WHILE WRITING A DISSERTATION
Re: Working While Writing a Dissertation
From: E. S.
Sue and Maggie, I'm a PhD in American studies (focusing on American art with a subfield in American lit). Before graduate school, I worked as an Editorial Assistant in book publishing and then, an Editor for an online publication. Since beginning graduate school, I have done research at a major museum (as an intern/fellow) and have taught as a TA (art history) and my own classes (Am lit/wr).
When I entered graduate school, I was under the impression that I was going to be funded during that time. After having been funded for a couple of years, the future now looks more bleak for advanced students in my dept (my dept isn't receiving enough money while they are increasing the number of entering students).
I have spoken to grad students at other schools and in other depts, and it appears as if the disseration writing phase of a PhD is becoming more problematic than it was years ago. Funding during that time is limited. One can teach as an adjunct (for a small amount of money), which is both enjoyable and helpful. Yet during the diss phase, one is under a great deal of pressure to finish in a timely fashion. I see more and more grad students taking on unrelated work to pay bills as they write their dissertations.
What kind of work outside of academia works well with writing a diss? Is it unreasonable to think that one could write a diss while holding a full-time job elsewhere? How can one use the full-time or part-time diss job to segue into a good career elsewhere? Or is it too distracting while writing a diss to be thinking in these terms? I thought perhaps you might have some wisdom to share from your interviews with former grad students and academics.
Also, for those of you on the list serv who are interested in ordering Sue and Maggie's book, it can be ordered on amazon.com if it's not in your local bookstore. And they ship internationally.
RE: Working While Writing a Dissertation
From: P. N.
From June 1997 until July 2000, I worked as a software developer while I completed my dissertation. When I began work as a developer, I was putting in a 40-hour week, and although I attempted to wake up at 4 a.m. to put in a few hours of writing, I wasn't always that successful. Since spending drowsy afternoons at my paying job wasn't feasible, I approached the manager my division about working a reduced work schedule. He was amenable to it, so I was able to cut my hours to 30/week. Typically, I'd work one full (8-10 hour) day in the office and then work afternoons the other four days. I was also able to change jobs and keep the same schedule. In July 2000, I defended my thesis.
Keep in mind, however, that I was able to do this because demand for software developers was hot. Now demand is considerably softer, and employers will probably pass up someone who's looking for a reduced work schedule in favor of someone who can work a full 40 hours or more. Further, I've come to realize that the companies for whom I worked weren't that good, and the experience I got did not turn out to be as marketable in a soft economy than it had been before. Consequently, I'm "doubly unemployed" right now: unable to land a faculty position _and_ without a software development position.
RE: Working While Writing a Dissertation
From: A. T.
E. S.,
Just to comment on your last question. I took a full time academic job right after I finished my comps and before I started the diss. I didn't have any more funding, and was "lucky" enough to be offered a tenure track, and it seemed like the only thing to do. Having done it, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I had a very heavy teaching load, advising, committees, extra work for strategic planning, hiring commitees, curriculum revision, and so on (some of this isn't typical for junior faculty, but you never can tell. They considered it friendly to include me, and I would have been considered uncollegial for trying to opt out of any of it.) In addition, I had a very rude awakening when I realized that my salary still wouldn't pay the bills once my loans came due. Plus, I was stuck in a small town far from all my support system and resources, and, in my naivete, unexpectedly landed in the middle of an unpleasant political situation in the department. And then, it turned out that even though they were well aware of my stage of research when they hired me, I was already being pressured by Feb of the first year to be finished -- and was treated like some kind of subhuman when I told them that wasn't going to happen.
Be careful about academic work (& the pitfalls that go with junior faculty pisitions, which have no limits on what they can ask you to do and really expect from you) while you still have any substantial amount of writing to do. I would imagine most full time jobs would be difficult to manage, but academic ones have much more downside than you would think. I wish I had explored options like freelancing etc., where you can have some control over workload and politics.
Re: working while writing a dissertation
From: C. L.
About working while writing a dissertation: I took a full-time research job at a public history non-profit about a year and half ago, when I'd written slightly more than half of my dissertation. I expected to be able to spend some time each week writing, and as someone else has said already, I thought the writing couldn't possibly get any slower than it had been, so why not be working? A year and a half later, I still have slightly more than half of my dissertation written. My "postacademic" work is very interesting and fulfilling, so I don't regret it in the least, but I would caution people who really want to finish their dissertations -- and to do it in a timely fashion -- to think very carefully about full-time work. My experience may not be typical, but I marvel at the people who have said that they've managed to keep up with their academic interests, and to keep publishing, while working outside the academy -- I can't imagine how I'd do it. I've come to the conclusion that I won't finish the dissertation until I have the opportunity either to work part-time for a while or to take some time off.
If you need or want to work full-time, though, my advice would be to make sure it's A) a job that really will be 9-5; and B) a job that isn't too intellectually or emotioning draining. Perhaps it's because my job and my dissertation draw on many of the same skills, but I have not been able to get myself to write on top of my full-time job. Congratulations to all of you who can!
re: time management
From: W. D.
For those graduate students who are contemplating finishing their dissertation while working at a full-time or part-time job, the situation C. L. described is about the same as that experienced by people in academic jobs who teach three or more classes per semester, serve on various institutional and outside, professional committees, and try to do their own research and writing at the same time. Very, very tough, if not impossible and especially so if you find yourself in an adjunct position.
Unable to move because of my husband's job--and really not that interested in doing so even if I could, for the past seven + years I worked as a lecturer in the California State University system. As a lecturer, an adjunct position, I was teaching three courses each semester, doing committee work, and advising teaching credential candidates. In essence I was doing the work tenure-track, junior faculty do, although at a much lower rate of pay.
Unable to get any research and writing, and thoroughly disgusted with the exploitation, last spring I quit. Thus, I second C. L.'s warning: be very careful about your expectations in respect to get research and writing done in "part-time" jobs. Mine turned out to be a part-time position that was really a full-time job.
Am I happier outside the academy? Do I want to return someday? Do I fear I'll be unable? I'm not sure I'll ever have conclusive answers to any of those questions. But, I can say that I love being able to decide what I want to do every day when I wake up. (I also sleep better and have lost about five pounds not eating junk food on the run.) While I don't miss grading papers (!), I do miss mentoring students. I know that no job is perfect, and that life is an adventure. So, I'm taking a risk, an element inherent in adventuring.
re: Working While Finishing the Diss
From: Maggie
E. S., P. N., A. T., C. L., W. D., and all others interested in the dynamics of working while finishing a dissertation,
As many of you have wisely pointed out, it's really tough to finish a dissertation while working full or even part-time. That being said, many graduate students have to do additional work to pay the bills.
Like P. N., I was fortunate to have an understanding employer who let me go part-time to finish my project. I started as a full-time employee and proved myself useful before asking for the reduced hours, however. Even the reduced hours were hectic, but the outside work gave me a new sense of competency and a different sense of pace. In other words, I realized I had helped build an entire company in less time than it took me to write a dissertation.
I also had a very demanding boss who was a source of stress but who also helped me finish. On my days off I would just imagine that I had to report my progress to him at the end of each day and I knew he would be appalled to hear I had written only one paragraph. OK, it was a weird little mind game, but it worked for me.
Finally, I think it's in many ways easier to take a job outside the academy while finishing. In my experience the key element is not whether a job is interesting or boring (I'd take interesting any day) but whether you have to take it home. If you have to bring papers home to grade, your time "off" isn't really your own. But if you can confine your hard work to an office, you'll be free to work on your dissertation at other times.
Re: Working While Finishing the Diss
From: C. L.
Maggie,
Thanks for that reply. But I'd like to point out that "taking a job outside the academy while finishing" is not necessarily more conducive to finishing than an academic job, because academic jobs are not the only ones that call for taking work home. Many of the most fulfilling non-academic jobs also end up coming home with you -- perhaps it's not grading, or the pressure to publish, but if you're committed to your job, there will be plenty of other things.
Re: Working While Finishing the Diss
From: Maggie
C. L.,
Thanks for your helpful correction--you're of course right to point out that many postacademic jobs require you to bring work home. I'm glad you mention this because it actually touches on a pretty crucial theme for the book--the diversity of postacademic jobs.
If at all possible, I'd recommend that the dissertation finishers out there look around for work that they can confine to their office.
working while finishing the diss
From: B. L.
Another personal testimonial along these lines (balancing finishing the dissertation with paid work) ... I feel that I had a very good situation as I finished my dissertation, although it still took me about a year and a half of pure writing time (after I had already spent considerable time researching). I chose not to adjunct teach, because that tended to be all-consuming for me. Instead, I searched for part-time work in publications, where I had a little experience. I found a part-time job (16 hours/week) at a university marketing/publications office as an editor/writer (also did additional freelance writing to supplement my income; I also had a fellowship that kicked in a little more money). I enjoyed this work and my colleagues, so I accepted the offer to work for the office full time, and finished the dissertation under those circumstances. While I worked full time and was putting the finishing touches on the dissertation, I had a period of about two months in which I devoted my every spare waking hour away from work to writing, but it got done! Perhaps my circumstances were unusual, but it was a good solution for me. I work at the office a fairly consistent 40 hours a week, rarely more. I'm not bored yet...
Re: working while finishing the dissertation
From: K. P.
Hi, all --
I just wanted to chime in here, because I finished my dissertation using a slightly different -- and somewhat risky -- strategy. I had done some research, and started writing a rather fruitless dissertation. Just when I was ready to tear my hair out and give up, I took a summer job as an academic administrator for a university-based program for gifted pre-college students. At the end of the summer, I was offered a full-time position, which I accepted. My plan was to work full-time and do nothing but read in my spare time: no writing, no thesis formation, pure research. Within one year, I had reformulated my focus and gathered a lot of good info. As a nice side benefit, I had saved enough to cover expenses for at least a year. So I bit the bullet, quit my job, and did nothing but write for a year and a half. I finished my diss right on schedule, and found that narrowing my focus to doing /just/ reading -- no premature writing -- for a year produced a better diss and a more mature thinking process. Having the year of "pure research" refreshed my point of view; and having time living in another world -- as an academic administrator -- helped me let go of all the baggage we accrue in a grad program. It really put everything in perspective. I was a far more confident academic at the end of the year, and had matured more in that brief span than I had in my previous 5 or so years in the grad program.
Was this approach risky? Could I have ended up never going back to my diss? Absolutely. But it worked for me.
So those are my 2 cents.
RE: time management
From: M. A.
This has been a great discussion, thanks for everyone's input. I have another twist that I'd be interested in seeing feedback on.
I did, by the way, finish my dissertation while working full-time, and I think that it NOT being an adjunct or junior faculty helped in the respect that my work did not, typically, ooze into a job that took 60 hours a week, a situation which seems pretty typical in academia! It was slow going, but as W. D. suggests in her subject line, time management seemed to be the key (well, I also freely admit that I had no children or huge family demands at the time, either).
I would be interested to hear from folks who are currently doing what I am about to embark in--namely, working full-time in a post-academic career while teaching at a university for one class. This is my attempt to stay 'in touch' with my field (Comparative Lit. and Medieval Studies) while continuing in what may come to be my permanent career-technical editing and training.
On the one hand, this situation suits me perfectly--I don't need more than one class, I have no deparmental responsibilities, and I don't need benefits since I get them from my job. I am teaching a class I like and am learning.
On the other, I have always been 'morally opposed' to adjunct positions, feeling that they are generally abusive etc (as we've heard this week, too). I'm also interested in knowing what other people who have done this feel about how teaching a class (as opposed to being a full-time adjunct) affects, or if it affects, a portfolio for full-time tenure-track work. I'm still sitting on the fence, and have been lucky enough to have a supportive job that feeds me while I'm sitting! I intend to go on the market for the first time this year, but quite frankly, I don't have high hopes, and I'm not interested in moving anywhere just to get the job.
Thanks for the great discussion, all!
Re: Working While Finishing the Diss
From: G. G.
I found that temping was a good part-time (or full-time if you wanted) job to take while writing the dissertation. And there were a number of other grad students in my neighborhood doing the same thing. It pays fairly well (in New York I was getting $18/hour), you rarely have to do more than answer the phone and take messages, and you can usually use their resources (computer, printer, internet access, copier, etc). It's also highly flexible so you can take jobs when you are stuck and take time off when you're on a roll writing. I started temping while preparing for my comprehensive exams and continued while writing about 1/4 of my dissertation. While on the job temping I mostly researched colleges I was applying to, compiled bibliographies and did other academic related tasks that didn't require tons of concentration. I know other grad students who have temped in New York and in other larger US cities with similar experiences.
It might not be for everyone, but it's pretty mindless work which I agree will allow you the mental energy to devote to writing your dissertation.
P.S. My temp jobs helped me land my current full time job as a personal translator/chief of staff at a Latin American investment bank. I'm still working on my dissertation (slowly but surely)--it will have taken me twice as long to do my dissertation as anticipated, but then again, I'm now making enough money (five times what I was making teaching!) to make a dent on my student loans!
temping, and quick thanks
From: Sue Basalla
Hello,
Just wanted to thank the many folks who are posting their own experiences and responses: R. G., G. G., W. D., and others. Also a quick hello to K. P. who's one of the founders of a wonderful and funny website on postacademic careers called the Escape Pod: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/7167/index.html
I also wanted to second G. G.'s comments on temping - as I said in my intro, I also found temping opened doors for me. It's well worth a try, especially as the economy gets tighter and having a foot in the door becomes even more important.
Some tips for temping productively: Call the temp agency with the most upscale ad in the yellow pages (also good if they do fulltime placement as well as temp) and tell them you'd like to temp. Say you have a good word processing skills, know Microsoft Excel, Powerpoint, whatever. Go to the office and do all of the silly paperwork. Keep your sense of humor when they ask you take a spelling test even though you have a Ph.D.
Then, once you've shown you're a good sport, tell them you'd love to get hired fulltime through temping, and you'd love to be placed somewhere you might have a future. Ask about particular companies that interest you to give them idea of what you'd like, but realize it may well not be possible. (You can also try calling the companies you like and asking where they get their temps.)
Once you get a temp job, keep asking for more work. Volunteer to write up notes or memos. Ask about projects that no one ever has time to do but need to be done. Have lunch with the people who work there, find out if there are openings in other depts. If you like it there, ask about finding a spot fulltime.
Don't let them keep you forever as a temp if they seem to like you - get hired fulltime or leave. If you get the vibe that there's no hope of moving up and you're gaining zero valuable experience, then request another temp job. And if nothing else, pocket the cash and move on. :)
Re: Working While Finishing the Diss
From: E. H.
In 1990, when they cut back student teaching positions at the university I was attending, I got a full-time job in the aerospace industry. I had done my field research and it was only a matter of writing up my dissertation (anthropology was the discipline). I made a promise to myself and tried to stick to it (which I think I succeeded) that 3 nights a week and 1 weekend day were for my dissertation. So discipline is/was a key. Intellectually, the work I did for money versus my dissertation were 180 degrees apart to say the least.
Looking back on it, I feel I made better progress than if I was hanging out on campus. On campus, not only was there the student teaching which took time, there was dealing with the students, often too much chit-chat with colleagues, and the prof who wanted a warm body to sit in on their seminar.
P.S.--if you are curious, I work for a museum now as a curator. Don't know if this qualifies as an academic job or not.
Re: working while finishing the diss
From: S. K.
Another great part-time option: online tutoring services. These provide academic support to colleges and universities who subscribe, or to individual students who come along and pay by the hour. I work part-time in the writing lab of one of these services, and the experience has been just as valuable--or more, in many ways--than my regular TA experience. Online, you're challenged to articulate ideas more clearly and effectively, because you never see a student face to face. CV-wise, the job has helped to land me a couple of interviews because universities are particularly interested right now in hiring people who can teach computer-assisted writing and develop online distance-learning curricula. Most services also offer tutoring in fields other than English--history, Math, psych., etc.
Re: online tutoring
From: A. P.
S. K., thanks for this interesting suggestion! Can you recommend any places on the Web to look for such services?
Job ad re: online tutoring
From: A. N.
Subject: Academic Coordinator, Online Writing -- Smarthinking.Com -- DC This job listing is from The Chronicle of Higher Education ( http://chronicle.com/jobs )
Academic Coordinator, Online Writing -- Smarthinking.Com -- DC
www.SMARTHINKING.com
Academic Coordinator: Online Writing
SMARTHINKING, a Washington, D.C.-based Internet organization providing real-time, online tutoring and learning services to high schools and colleges, seeks a full-time D.C.-based Online Writing Coordinator.
Responsibilities include: recruiting, training, and managing professional instructors; monitoring and evaluating instructional quality; creating new writing programs (e.g. career, ESOL); consulting client institutions; engaging in research and scholarly presentations.
The ideal candidate will have a Ph.D. in rhetoric/composition, English studies, or similar field. S/he will have experience with composition direction, training and/or professional development, administrative experience and writing center work. S/he must work in a fast-paced environment and take additional responsibilities as SMARTHINKING grows. For more information, visit: www.smarthinking.com .
For immediate consideration, e-mail cover letter and resume with two references to jobs@smarthinking.com or fax them to Christa Ehmann at (202) 543-5589. Put "Academic Coordinator: Online Writing" in subject heading and attach documents in .doc, .rtf or .pdf format. Please indicate where you first heard of this position. An EOE.
EXITING AND REENTERING ACADEMIA: IS IT POSSIBLE?
Question: getting out & getting back in
From: O. T.
"And you can still apply for academic jobs with no worse stain on your reputation than if you were an adjunct. In fact, I know some schools that consider postacademic experience a bonus. It also makes for a far less desperate and anxious job seeker."
Does anyone have evidence to confirm this statement? I've been laboring under the impression that once one gets off the academic bus, there's no getting back on. As a grad student, I'd like to take some time for a more mobile career before settling into whatever provincial corner academia will (if I'm lucky) put me in, but I'm afraid that such a move would mark me as "damaged goods." Does anyone have any stories about this?
re: damaged goods?
From: Sue Basalla
O. T.,
Hello- thanks for writing! I met several people in researching the book who got off the academic bus and got right back on again. But honestly, a far greater number of them THOUGHT they'd get back on the bus, and just let it pass them by because they were happier where they were. Here's a story about one of the first types for you:
Marguerite was an unconventional grad student. She was at a large state university and frequently bucked her professors' advice. She took a job in the student counseling office instead of TA'ing. She took a year off to work at a student exchange program and do film-making with PETA. Her advisors told her they didn't approve and told her she'd never get a job. She ignored them because, as she said, it was her life to live. When she decided that she'd like to stay in Wash. DC, she applied for both academic and postacademic jobs -- a small Catholic college hired her because they thought she'd be more in touch with the students than people who'd never circulated outside a university. They liked her administrative skills -- every university has programs, committees, etc. that need to be run. She was one of only 2 or 3 people in her dept. to get a job that year. She feels that the border between academia and postacademia is entirely permeable.
The bottom line about the damaged goods question for me is that there's absolutely no guarantee that keeping yourself "pure" for academics will result in a job. Not even close. How many thousands of "pure" academics don't get hired each year? I just can't see any downside to broadening your horizons (and vastly increasing your chance of making a living) with postacademic work. You'll be less desperate if you do go on the market again, you can live wherever you want, and -- who knows? -- you may discover you like it out there and not even want to go back. :)
re: getting out & getting back in
From: K. C.
For what it's worth, here's what has happened to me as far as getting out and getting back in:
I'm ABD in lit (Shakespeare to be specific) from a smaller, private institution. Told that I would no longer receive funding, I took a f/t job as an editor/technical writer with a company that produces patient information materials and instructional products for the elementary and secondary school market in order to finance the diss. Researching & writing for 8 hours a day did nothing to help me finish, and after a year, I was bored. But, the technical writing aspect of my job did help me to get an adjunct position at a school closer to my family. So, in that respect having a job in a related but non-academic workplace has helped to get me back into academia if one calls being an adjunct "back into academia." In fact, none of the people who interviewed me gave any indication that professional experience outside of academe was an impediment, and they suggested that if a position at their school (also smaller & private) were to open up, I would definitely be strongly considered. Now whether or not that year of experience in the "real world" actually does help me later remains to be seen.
On a related note: my biggest concern at this point is that if I decide not to pursue an academic job, but look for work elsewhere, I'll run into the same boredom that I experienced as a technical writer. I'm wondering if it's possible to work in the "real world" and teach on the side, and if so, how does one go about finding such jobs, i.e. non-academic employment that isn't boring and teaching jobs that fit around a "regular" work schedule?
Thanks for opening up the dialogue on this!
re: getting out & getting back in/postacademic boredom
From: Maggie
K. C.,
Don't let a boring stint as a technical writer turn you off. Many of the people we interviewed found their first and second jobs outside the academy less than rewarding. But they kept on looking. If there's something your interested in writing about, offer your services as a freelancer. We spoke with a former psychology/child development professor, for example, who's now happily employed writing and administering grants for the non-profit Kids Count campaign.
As for finding time to teach on the side, several of our interviewees taught evening classes. Others were able to negotiate a part-time schedule (usually after proving themselves to be valuable employees).
Re: Switching Back and Forth
From: P. P.
Question: a curiosity one: Maggie and Susan, you have described several cases where someone's postacademic experience actually led to them being hired back into an academic position. Have you found many or any universities that actively look for humanities / social science faculty who can provide somewhat of a bridge between the two worlds? That is, where it is almost policy, rather than an occasional exception?
re: Switching Back and Forth
From: Maggie
P. P. and others interested in switching back and forth between the academic and postacademic worlds,
Thanks for sharing your great job story and your question. There seems to be a lot of interest on the list about whether working outside the academy marks you as damaged goods (as some have claimed) or makes you more attractive to hiring committees (as you suggest).
Like every other job search issue, this one varies widely. I don't know of any university with a policy of giving preference to academics who have left for a while. But I do know of at least one case in which a candidate was told that her outside work for some nonprofit agencies gave her an advantage in being hired. The university perceived her as a capable teacher and administrator (very desirable for the small liberal arts college in question) as well as someone who could prepare her students to get jobs (few of these students go on to grad school, the college is focused on helping place them in jobs).
POSTACADEMIC DISAPPOINTMENTS AND PLEASURES
re: questions: disappointed interviewees and regaining the passion
From: D. T.
hi to all - like L. W., i find myself embedded in middle-age, tenured (at associate level), in a disagreeable location, and pretty disenchanted with the direction academia is increasingly going. i agree emphatically with you, Sue and Maggie, and with M. P. about the need for universities to be held accountable for the job directions offered their graduates. unfortunately, i don't see much genuine effort being made in this direction. student concerns are given lip-service for the most part, until a lawsuit is brought or wealthy alumni start get on the phone. then university policy shifts, but only to protect themselves from future legal action, not out of any enlightened interest in student welfare. this applies to faculty too. so i'm eager for info on 'post-academic' alternatives, and very much look forward to reading your book, Sue and Maggie.
i have 2 questions, one for Sue and one for Maggie:
Sue: in your introduction, you wrote that of the 100+ interviewees you talked with, no one had any regrets about their post-academic choices, and that all are "smart, happy, and successful." please correct me if i'm misinterpreting. but if i'm understanding you correctly, how can you account for such unanimity? maybe i'm too much of a cynic (quite likely), but i'm having trouble believing such a uniformly glowing report. i think we can learn as much or more from those who have had bad experiences and who have warnings to give, as from those who are extremely positive. are there no disappointments out there?
Maggie: also from your intro -- could you give us some of those stories about how your interviewees continued to pursue their passions in their postacademic careers, the passions that had brought them to grad. school in the first place? this is one of the key issues for me, as i suspect it is for lots of academics.
many thanks to you both for your efforts in this dialogue!
Re: disappointed interviewees and regaining the passion
From: Maggie
D. T. and others, I'm happy to share a few examples of those interviewees who continued to pursue their passions outside the academy:
- Bob Rumm, a PhD in history, took a job with History Associates, a Maryland firm that conducts archival research for individuals and corporations. He's drawn on his research and writing skills to produce histories of the Burpee seed company and the Special Olympics, among others.
- Stacy Rees was writing a comparative literature dissertation on images of mothering in medieval literature. She traded her academic research for a career as a midwife. She's still very interested in mothering--but in a different form.
- Michelle Squiteri wrote a dissertation on Renaissance poetry before becoming a private investigator. She finds her training as a careful document researcher serves her well.
These are just a few of the examples we found-
re: glowing report from outside
From: Sue Basalla
Dear D. T.,
Hello - good to hear from a tenured faculty member - they had some of the most interesting stories in our book. I hope other faculty who may be lurking will chime in as well.
I agree, it does sound incredible that all these people we talked to wouldn't go back to academia now. One thing I say in the book that I couldn't fit in my intro is that a handful of people who were extremely devoted teachers did say that perhaps -- someday -- IF the perfect job in the perfect place happened to fall in their lap, they might go back to teaching because they loved students. But only as one choice among thousands of other options. But far more often we heard devoted teachers say what Maggie (a stellar teacher herself) often says: you don't have to be in a classroom to teach.
That exception aside, I think there are several reasons people give glowing reports. First, there are a million choices outside academia. If someone leaves the academy and hates their first job, they move on through other jobs until they find something they really like. So the odds of being happy are heavily in your favor -- there are so many more chances for you to find what you like. And to make a change whenever you feel restless.
Also, many people we spoke to were looking back at long careers so they had reached greater satisfaction than they might have initially found. (We freely admit, and often say, that your first postacademic job may be a stinker. But the good news is once you've had one postacademic job, no one will ever question your credentials again.)
I think people also love the geographical freedom -- being able to live wherever you want is a huge boost to your quality of life. And finally, this group is also self-selecting -- people who wanted to leave academia...left. So they're happier.
However, I don't want to give short shrift to the people who believe that it's worth it to stay in academia no matter what the cost. I have enormous respect for people who are so devoted to their studies. It's an entirely a personal decision. I would never want to talk those folks into leaving the place they love best.
Re: glowing report from outside
From: J. J.
Someone mentioned a certain incredulity at the claim that all of the people who had been interviewed for the book were thrilled and happy clams at their technical writing jobs, their editorial assistant jobs, their research assistant jobs, and other various mid-level management positions. Really? REALLY? (!) Hmmm.....
I find this rather difficult to believe. Anecdotally, most of the people I know working in these sorts of jobs, while they are resigned to them, do not find them fulfilling. And passion is about the last word they would use in relation to their work. They're jobs. Period. Granted, they're better jobs than working in a bar or a cafe or a book store, but they're still just jobs. They pay the rent, or the mortgage, and the car payments, they fund a two-week vacation to wherever, but they do not fulfill them.
I mean really, isn't the fact that most "professional" jobs are fairly tedious, dull, inane, and wrought with petty office politics (not that academia isn't) one of the reasons people marry and have children? Not to be cynical or anything, but when the job bites, at least people can find some meaning in raising a family--I guess....
And finally, to the tenured professor in South Texas, I wish to offer my sympathy, and also to say that hearing your story is illuminating--to say the least. I'm 39 and presently in a two-year full-time position--but I'm in a decent city (Philadelphia). The prospect of getting a tenure-track line in rural wherever (whew, South Texas...I've seen "Touch of Evil" and "Lonestar" one too many times to even think of going there) scares me down to the marrow. I feel bad for you, sir.
Re: getting out & getting back in/postacademic boredom
From: K. P.
I'd agree with Maggie on this one. Often, we come to our careers -- academic or post-academic -- with the notion that once you make the grade, everything will be "happily ever after." Just as every job has its good days and bad days, every career/job has its peaks and valleys. I /loved/ my first post-dissertation job -- until the company went through some serious changes that promised to strongly impact my department and duties. Coupling that with my budding realization that the vertical career path offered by my company wasn't one I wanted to take, I went on the market again. My /second/ post-dissertation job has been fascinating, maddening, exhilarating, exhausting, inspiring, disheartening, and everything in between. And that's just life.
RE Postacademic Boredom
From: J. T.
I'd also like to contribute my perspective as a person who has passed the one year postacademia benchmark. I thoroughly enjoyed getting my Ph.D. in Comparative Literature. I lived in Europe for many years during the writing and research phase. Once it was done, the "blue-chipedness" of my diploma did get me a lot of interesting, although dead-end jobs at universities in France. Despite the fact that I was more comfortable in France than in the US, I caved to the temptation to leave to accept a tenure-track position at a small college in rural Ohio. It seemed tailor-made for me. Heck, it's pretty hard to get a tenure-track appointment in French and German. But...the experience was a complete disaster. I hated the school and the geographic location. Let's face it. Most of us in academe are fond of cultural opportunities and interesting and articulate people. Geographic location is one of the main criteria for having a happy life, even if you have a happy family, job, etc. The worst part was feeling like a loser and slowly feeling dumb and dumber. Since leaving academe and moving to Washington DC a year ago, I have had many problems with the transition. For example, I was laid-off while pregnant during a recent downsizing. That was very, very hard. However, I find that the freelance jobs that I am getting have given me back my self-respect. A Ph.D. can carry a fair amount of prestige if it is marketed right. I can almost guarantee that finding a job outside academe where the grey matter is pressed into service is much more rewarding than teaching the same rote introductory courses to uninterested students. An interest in technology has opened many doors for me. Even if I can't pretend to be a hard-core "techie," I have often benefitted from the assumption that I am smart enough to learn anything necessary for a particular task. Cultivating a sincere interest in the uses of the new technologies for communication will create a wide array of new career choices. Instructional design is the up and coming new field and who is better positioned to practice it than we are? [P.S. I believe I had an telephone interview with Maggie when I was applying to Lifeminders. Could this be true? Or am I just imagining? We spoke of some of the transition issues that have arisen during this discussion thread.]
Re: Postacademic Boredom
From: B. K.
Dear J. T., thank you for your message. I could relate about the overseas experience etc and academic position. I have a tenure track job (though little chance of tenure), which has left me somewhat miserable for a variety of reasons which I won't go into here. Although I will go on the academic job market this year I am thinking seriously of leaving academics altogether. Your message was hopeful, but it wasn't clear to me what exactly it is that you do for a living. What do you do and how did you start?
Re: Class
From: K. P.
I have to say I'm a little puzzled at the great desire to believe that those of us who /like/ our post-academic jobs must be lying. To speak for myself -- I have to say post-academic life has been good. My post-academic jobs have challenged my brain just as much as my academic work. The pleasure I've found in teaching students has been matched by the chances I've had to mentor other employees -- both in terms of their long-term career goals and their day-to-day job performance (and sometimes those 2 issues overlap).
And here are some perks I've found in post-academic life that I did not find in academic life: a higher degree of professionalism and greater (and more measurable) accountability.
Do I miss long days, listening to classical music while finetuning my dissertation? Sure! But that isn't the only professional pleasure I'm able to enjoy.
And the following argument alarms me a little:
"I mean really, isn't the fact that most "professional" jobs are fairly tedious, dull, inane, and wrought with petty office politics (not that academia isn't) one of the reasons people marry and have children? Not to be cynical or anything, but when the job bites, at least people can find some meaning in raising a family--I guess...."
In my case, I met my significant other at work. We've served as professional mentors and confidants, and although we no longer work together, we enjoy talking through each other's professional triumphs and challenges. We're not together as an escape from work -- though our relationships transcends the bond that we forged in the work place.
So what I'm saying is: yes, I really, really do like my job and career. That doesn't mean it's perfect, and that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy my academic life, to a certain extent. But sometimes, there is a happy alternative to life in the ivory tower.
Re: Class
From: T. M.
Alas, there seems to be plenty of misery to go around, both in the academy and elsewhere. I think J. J. is right that lots of folks (though certainly not all) professional people are unhappy in their jobs; but I think the same is true in academia. My former colleagues in philosophy were such that, if you asked them whether they liked teaching, they'd say yes and perhaps even wax romantic about the noble pursuit of teaching. Yet whenever you saw these people going about the nitty-gritty, day-to-day tasks associated with teaching, they almost always looked *miserable* and they complained about everything under the sun!
RE: Class
From: M. T.
Thank you for injecting a dose of reality about the non-academic world. I've been in it for nearly three years post PhD and even though I have a good deal of autonomy (probably because of my degree) I find the work not much more satisfying than Chinese takeout food-- it fills you up but never really hits the spot. My real issue is the superficiality of the work that I do and limitations of those I work with when it comes to trying to engage with "big picture" questions. This may well be the 'first job' experience others on this list have written about and I'm hoping to be able to move beyond that in my next position (which I'm actively looking for). Of course none of this is meant to contradict what has been said about the downside of work within the academy... the politics, the lack of enthusiasm among many students to name just two.
Because the meritocracy in which we toil seems designed to place the most narcissistic and dysfunctional people into leadership positions perhaps it's safe to say, as a good friend of mine often does, that things looked at all over.
re: postacademic boredom
From: C. L.
I'd just like to add my voice to the replies to the person who posted a few days ago about how everyone he knew in jobs such as editorial assistants, research assistants, etc. was bored and unfulfilled. I happen to be one of those people (my title is "research associate") and am far from bored or unfulfilled. In fact, I find the work I do to be much more fulfilling than my strictly academic work, partly because I know the audience for it is so much wider than the potential audience for my dissertation would ever be... As people view the idea of working outside the academy, I think the most dangerous thing you can do is to fall into the trap of thinking that academic work is the only intellectually interesting and fulfilling option out there. It's intellectual snobbery, untrue, and not at all helpful.
Thanks for a great discussion this week, everyone.
re: Satisfaction (was Class) & switching back
From: P. P.
I have a question, but I thought I'd relate my experience first.
A year ago I was participating here as a guest speaker on the Information Technology discussion. I have a Ph.D. in history, but decided after a couple years of scrounging part-time university teaching jobs--and that geographic location (Vancouver BC) meant more to me than a tenure track job--to leap into the corporate world.
Today, I'm unemployed, having been laid off at the end of June. I'm also still owed my pay cheques for the entire month of June.
I have no regrets about moving on from Academia, even though my first full-time postacademic job ended with a whimper.
I enjoyed my job, until the end when it got a little nutty. The remaining history academic in me found it intriguing to watch from the inside a major transformation in history happening. Even the final collapse - since my company's happened a long time after that of many other dot coms - had its fascinating moments, as well as disappointing ones.
I am having a great break from everything right now - no commitments, no schedule to keep (it's wonderful!).
And I am excited about the various options I have. And while theoretically, at least, I could return to academia, I have no intention of doing so. "Been there, done that." There are too many other interesting paths I could take.
Question: informational interviewing
From: W. C.
Dear Maggie and Sue,
Thanks so much for being guest speakers this week. I truly enjoyed your book.
Here's my question: In your book, you really stress the benefits of informational interviewing. I wonder if you have any advice for someone disgruntled with and soured on the informational interviewing route. I've done quite a few and they've tended to be awkward, unhelpful, and rather unsatisfying. This might be because my inclination is to do a _lot_ of reading about the field and the specific business before interviewing, so I don't usually go in as a blank slate. Often, in fact, I don't really feel like I have any solid reason for being there at all, other than to make a contact and network and because this is what books and career counselors have told me over and over I have to do. The interviewees tend to: a. Assume I know nothing about the field and give me long-winded monologues about things I already know (yawn), or b. Talk about personal preferences that aren't very insightful about the field as a whole (one interviewee, after I asked him what traits he thinks would make someone successful in the field, told me all about what he'd look for in hiring -- basically someone with a personality just like his), or c. Be a bit wary of why I'm there, assuming, probably justifiably, that many informational interviewers are really hoping that this will be a job interview
I went into one informational interview determined to avoid the awkwardness by arming myself with a pretty comprehensive list of questions (what is a typical day like? what kinds of experiences do you consider essential training for this field? where do people find out about jobs in this field?). I've got this long, pretty darn good list. Despite my best efforts to keep the conversation informal and casual, halfway through, the interviewee got quite huffy and demanded to know if I was interviewing him (um, yes, seeing as I had requested an "information interview"! I think he thought I was some covert job performance evaluator or undercover journalist or something, which still strikes me as amusing).
Any advice on how to make an informational interview less awkward and more useful?
Thanks for your time and your willingness to share!
re: info interviews
From: Sue Basalla
Dear W. C.,
Hello -- you asked a question that's close to my heart: "Any advice on how to make an informational interview less awkward and more useful?"
Yup, it can be very awkward. And I definitely have experienced exactly the kind of long-winded self-centered meetings you describe. But I hate to admit that to people up front because then they'd never do a single one and they'd miss out on that one person in 10 who's truly helpful. Honest, they're out there. :)
So, how to make the other 9 more bearable? Since you've already done a lot of research on the field, maybe you could make your info intvws shorter and more focused. Maybe send them your resume via email, tell them you've done lots of research, and ask if they have suggestions to make it more appealing to someone in their field? Or just email them 2-3 highly specific questions to help you "wrap up your research"? Doesn't take long to make a contact, and you can always extend the conversation if it seems fruitful.
It also may be that you're just ready to start looking for jobs and that's why info intvws feel pointless. You could try stepping things up a little by sending a resume with an email saying, "I'm just about ready to start looking for jobs -- do you know anyone in the area who's hiring? I'm interested a copywriting job at a small ad agency, like XYZ or ABC."
Good luck, and hang in there!
re: Question: Long-Distance Networking
From: L. W.
And so, what about the 50-year old PhD?
I'm really becoming somewhat disgruntled by the course of this discussion. We hear about networking, for example. As a working academic for the past twenty years, I honestly have to say that I don't know any people who are corporate executives. And located at the very southern-most tip of Texas, I'm not likely to be sipping lattes with any Fortune 500 CEOs any time soon. Setting up "informational interviews"? How? Where? With whom? When? Teaching four or more classes each semester, serving on committees, teaching summer school to compensate for a pay rate that is disgracefully below that in private industry, and maintaining even the minimal degree of scholarly productivity necessary to the job leaves precious little time for such things, especially when traveling hundreds of miles or more would be necessary in order to meet face-to-face with anyone who could be of even the slightest value (assuming that anyone in such a position would even be willing to do so and that I could figure out who such a person was in the first place). This is what I have found so incredibly frustrating about the various books (not Sue's and Maggie's, which I haven't seen yet) and web sources that I've consulted. It seems to me that they all assume that anyone who is looking to make a professional move is in the geographical position to just "network" (whatever that means) at will and has the time and connections to do so.
I was hoping to get something from this discussion list, and from this guest thread in particular, beyond the usual rhetoric found in the self-help section at Walden Books.
Sorry for the rant, but ....
RE: long-distance networking
From: M. T.
L. W.:
I have found networking via email to be more effective than face-to-face. There is less of a commitment required from the networkee and the people I've contacted have been able to sustain as much as a half dozen rounds of questions back and forth. The trick is finding out your target's email address but with the plethora of lists and business association web sites this is not all that hard to do. Of course, in the end anyone stuck in South Texas may have to just make the jump out without a prospective employer lined up. Maybe a visiting professor job in a city with a population might be a good way out. But all of this is probably obvious to you.
re: long-distance networking
From: H. S.
I have no solution to the real problems of demanding schedules, but there are several possible resources for long-distance networking (over the phone and the internet).
- You might contact your undergraduate institution, your graduate school, or your current university to see if one or all have databases of alumni who have agreed to give informational interviews to fellow alums. This could begin to give you access to a non-university occupational crowd.
- Networking on the Network, a guide by Phil Agre (Dept. of Information Studies, UCLA) to networking over the internet. http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/network.html
- Some career centers also gather together a database of people who have agreed to give informational interviews to people who are also members of the career center. The only ones I know of (because it's the only place I've looked) are in California. http://www.careeraction.org/CACpub/ http://www.ar.org/ It may be possible to join these and use their resources from afar (I'm not sure).
- Other possibilities are mailing lists related to your area of interest. The Riley Guide provides a number of different places to start: http://www.dbm.com/jobguide/network.html#n103
I'm just at the beginning of the switch to nonacademic work, so I can't give you stories about how I've used all these resources to bring about a happy conclusion. But I'm still optimistic...
Best of luck.
Re: networking when isolated
From: Sue Basalla
Dear L. W.,
Hello, thanks for writing. I agree that networking is the single most frustrating part of jobhunting, especially from a cold start. But H. S. already said exactly what I would have said in her great response: it's all about email. There has never been a better forum for getting information from perfect strangers. I've had incredible luck just emailing staff members at random based on some perceived common ground (i.e. Red Sox fan, native of Delaware, graduate degree).
Practical steps: 0) target a geographical area where you want to live and/or a field of interest 1)surf around and find companies that interest you by doing category searches in the yellow pages of Yahoo for example 2) go over that company's site with a fine tooth comb and decide on your best approach 3) write to someone at a middle level in the organization explaining your interest and asking a question about the business, say you want to avoid the HR route for now and just find out what kind of people they're looking for 4) look at alumni databases from your alma mater(s) for companies and do same as above...
That's the recipe for the coldest of all searches. I understand that if you've been a professor for years, you probably have no contacts in the outside. It's tough to change gears, but the good news is, if you can find that first job, it'll never be this hard again.
Re: frustration
From: D. S
Hi ....
I have been following the discussion for some time now with a bit of frustration .... I can't understand why so many articulate, highly educated people would, for the most part, be so negative about their chances in the non-academic labour market ....
At the risk of (further?) painting myself as a loser, may I comment?
I matriculated in the humanities at a prestigious university with a major, portable national fellowship in hand. Garnered my department's highest fellowship award, to boot, to supplement the national fellowship. Have presented a dozen papers or so at conferences. Won a regional grad student paper award during my grad student years. Had a very, very good university press *waiting* to publish my dissertation (will be out in November). Never got a chance to teach the classes I would have liked to, but did do considerable TA stuff and *some* independent teaching. I sound like a success story, no?
Well, here's the other side. Three years ago I finished the degree and began the job search. In that period I have looked for teaching jobs, writing and editing jobs (which I have done before), and even, in desperation, some high-end secretarial jobs. Total number of applications sent out? About 250. I have consulted with a career counselor in order to produce various versions of a resume for various jobs. I have taken career planning weekend workshops. I have bought and studied books on writing the perfect cover letter. I have taken pro-active stances on jobs that I was really, really interesting in -- calling to check on the status of their search process, expressing my continuing interest in the position, etc. I have networked among those I know and cultivated professional relationships with some I didn't know before. But I have had maybe a half dozen interviews in that time -- and as of this writing have no firm job offer yet.
There's never been any doubt that I am bright and articulate, that I write very well, that I work hard and know my stuff. Bright and talented. Yup. That's me.
So what's wrong with me? I have been severely depressed over the fact that I am now in my 40s and still not able to support myself, though I had thought I was doing a good thing for myself by getting an advanced degree. At this point in time, I find it hard to be inspired by success stories like the one you have related, Jan. I want to believe, but....
Brenda
re: frustration
From: Sue Basalla
D. S., I hear what you're saying - it's incredibly frustrating that people who were wildly successful (as you clearly were) in the academic world can have a hard time being recognized for their skills in the postacademic world. And there's nothing more self-punishing than job hunting -- it's a horrible strain on anyone's ego and self-confidence to put yourself forward and get rejected. And it happens to all of us. It sounds like you're doing everything right -- especially the part about networking, recasting your resume, and being proactive. (Classified ads and "perfect cover letters" are usually less reliable bets, altho worth trying.) It's hard to say from here what you might do differently. Perhaps if you write me again, either on or off list, with more details about the field you're trying to enter, your experience, what you're doing now, I can be more helpful.
re: Question: kinds of postacademic jobs
From: W. D.
Dear Susan, Maggie, and members of the list, Perhaps this is a question that has already been addressed, and if so, I apologize and am willing to look at the logs if so directed. Here it is: I'd like to know more about the kinds of jobs/careers post-academics have pursued. I expect that the range is fairly wide and a matter of personal choice, to some extent; however, when I finish with my current research project--a book on the history of community in 20th c. America, I'd like to have some idea of the areas in which other post-academics have found fulfillment.
re: Postacademic Fulfillment
From: Maggie
Dear W. D. and others,
Thanks for your question about where postacademics have found fulfillment. As you suggest, the range is wide. One woman we interviewed assured us that if you "scratch the surface of any major corporation you'll find some PhDs." In addition to the corporate sector,
--Some postacademics who are particularly concerned with social and cultural issues have found happiness at nonprofits (like the Annie E. Casey Foundation, the Burroughs Wellcome Fund, the World Wildlife Fund, arts organizations, etc).
--Several former academics have continued their love of research outside the academy--as researchers at the Conference Board, the Institutes of Medicine, etc.
--A few academics who really value working on their own have started companies, including a biotech company founded by two religion PhDs and an advertising firm founded by a former English professor.
These are just a few examples. As you say, it's a very personal choice!
NEGOTIATING THE BORDER BETWEEN THE ACADEMIC AND NONACADEMIC WORLDS
re: Moving back & forth
From: E. W.
Dear Sue and Maggie (and anyone else who'd care to weigh in!):
I am ABD (and very close to completion) in the History Dept. at the University of Southern California. Ideally, I really would like to land a tenure-track position at a research university (insert snort of cynicism here), but I finally have come to realize that that actually is pretty darn unlikely given the job market, the stature of the school from which I will graduate, and so on and so forth. I originally joined this list as a sort of back up measure: a methodology to be wheeled out if and only if I could not find an academic post. D. S.'s story rang all sorts of alarming bells of recognition, although I have not yet hit the academic market in any serious way. I will be tackling it soon, however, and I very much fear that I may have a similar experience. Hers certainly is not the only horror story I have heard, many of them from exceptionally well qualified people.
I actually have two questions, the first of which already has been raised by another list member (O. T.). Sue said to M. P., "You can still apply for academic jobs with no worse stain on your reputation than if you were an adjunct. In fact, I know some schools that consider postacademic experience a bonus." I posted something on this issue recently and don't wish to repeat myself entirely, but I have been told repeatedly by various members of my department that, at least in the field of history, taking a job outside the academe is akin to shooting yourself in the foot if you wish at some point to land a full-time, tenure-track academic position at a reputable institution (my goal). On the other hand, I also have been told repeatedly, often by precisely the same people, that long-term adjuncting has the same result. A truly sick-making Catch 22. My question, not just to Sue and Maggie, but to other list members who may have anecdotal evidence as well, is this: If I have ! to choose between the two while waiting for that elusive academic job to appear, is one of them a better choice than the other vis-a-vis future hiring committees, or are they about a wash? Can one even make such a generalization, or does it vary depending on one's field (i.e., postacademic experience may be considered a bonus by a biz school but not by a history dept.)? (My apologies, BTW, to all those who have ranted about the adjunct system and who have encouraged everyone to boycott it as a means of killing it off. I agree, I agree; but if you read on, you may understand a bit better why I would consider adjuncting at least temporarily, no matter how vile the system may be.)
My second question is an emotional one, and may bear on answers to my first question. Again citing Sue, this time to I. G.: "It's important to make your peace with your decision to work outside before you start interviewing. When you believe you're ready, you'll be able to convince others that you are, too." This certainly is not the first time I have heard this piece of advice; it makes total sense. In my case, however, making such a peace would be very difficult, since my entire reason for pursuing a Ph.D. was so that I could become a college professor. I worked in corporate America for 11 years prior to returning to school, and I absolutely hated it. The thought of being forced to return to that environment fills me with despair, but if I absolutely positively cannot find a job in academia, then clearly I will have to try to find an alternative--and hopefully one that does not fill me with despair! So my question is, does anyone have any advice to offer to someone who has no real desire to leave academia but who may very well be forced to do so? I don't really mean technical advice on how to find a job and so forth, but more advice on how to deal emotionally with watching my dream go up in smoke, with feeling that I have wasted 10 years of the most productive period of my life (I'm 43) pursuing a degree that I did not need, etc., etc.?
Many thanks in advance for any and all input on either or both of these issues.
Re: Moving back & forth
From: R. G.
Dear E. W. (and possibly others standing on the border between academic and postacademic worlds),
This is perhaps more of a response to the "technical" side of your question, rather than the emotional one, but I'm thinking of both here:
Have you considered working in academic administration, rather than adjuncting? Having worked as a lecturer for the last year, I certainly understand why it's sometimes a means to an end. But I'm not certain that a job in admin would be perceived as negative, especially if staying in the university environment meant access to the resources, community, and culture that academics value.
Yes, I know admin. can get a bad reputation (it depends on the school, I think, and the nature of the job you find). And sometimes faculty look down their noses at administrators--unwisely, in my opinion, especially when they depend on follow-through from those people who often have similar educational pedigrees (and budget control). But the job wouldn't necessarily follow you home the way teaching might, and it might offer greater stability and peace of mind than last-minute lecturing assignments. And I expect on a resume it would count as postacademic experience if you decided not to continue pursuing the professorial life.
That said, staying in the university isn't for me, period. But I did consider administration for a little while, and I think some people have really found it fulfilling.
Re: Moving back & forth
From: K. F.
Hello, R. G. and E. W.,
R. G. makes an interesting point. I've been following the discussions and would characterize myself as someone who stands on the border between the "academic" and the "postacademic" worlds.
I still hope to land that elusive tenure-track appointment. But I have personal and other concerns that would make it difficult for me to leave my metro area. Let's put it this way: if an agreeable and reasonable offer in academia surfaced, it may be worth uprooting my life and partner here to take it. If such an offer doesn't surface, it's academia's loss. Period.
My field is German Studies. It's a small field, as you may imagine. When I went on the job market last year I didn't have my dissertation *in hand*, as they say. While I did receive some promising MLA interviews, nothing final panned out. So, there's hope for this fall's job market, for now I've defended. But I doubt that having a dissertation *in hand* automatically makes that much of a difference. Yes, I have publications, conferences, grants, significant teaching experience, and overseas time. After a certain point, things like that don't help anymore, I don't think.
Anyway, here's my point. I obtained summer full-time employment in the Study Abroad office here at my university. It has already impressed a faculty member at one state college who happened to contact me with an offer of fixed-term, part-time academic employment (80 miles away, I might add. And it's elementary language teaching, which means classes meet four or five days a week. Did I mention that I don't own a car??) You see, international education/study abroad programs are a vital part of undergraduate foreign-language education. If you wind up as an asst prof in a language dept on a small college campus, you may be leading the students abroad in the summer or in the fall. Or you might be the study abroad coordinator at that campus for your language/country.
This may be too specialized for some of you to think about. But since I am in the Humanities, I've also thought about obtaining employment in academic administration in something like a College of Liberal Arts, for example. If you became an Assistant to some higher-level administrator, you would liaison between faculty and CLA administration. That's a great way to learn about bread-and-butter issues in your greater field. Again, smaller academic institutions will be interested in this, for they need people who are good teachers, good researchers, AND good administrators. And I think it's entirely respectable for larger institutions as well. It's not easy to get these positions.
As I begin to look around me and notice who the coordinators of various programs and suchlike are here on my campus, I'm realizing there are more than a few Ph.D.s that I know in those positions. These people decided to make their home at the university, just not in the classroom. (Actually, one teaches one class a year in his former home department.) That could be a nice life. You have all the advantages of being at a University. You get to deal with faculty. You research projects--some short, some long-term. Certainly, you'll never make a ton of money, but then you get to go home at 4:30 or 5:00 and have your weekends to yourself.
And you don't have to feel *bad* about taking such a position and leaving after a year or so to take up a position in the private sector or in teaching. Typically, universities won't make a commitment to fund P&A positions beyond a year. At least I think major public research universities don't. What's the phrase--"annually renewable position contingent upon performance and funding." So, if you have luck and plan it right, you can work in administration, fulfill your contract, and then depart. Or, you may decide to stay a while.
RE: moving back & forth
From: L. W.
Replying both to E. W. and to J. J., one other "sick making Catch-22" to keep in mind is what might be called the "three-year curse." Before I accepted my current position, which was a tenure-track line, I asked a very well respected historian what he thought about it in terms of my long-term professional goals. He responded that I should go ahead and take it, BUT unless I was committed to staying for the rest of my career, I should immediately start looking for something else. As he put it, if you are still at a mediocre or worse institution after three years, that's where you'll stay. While I've not collected statistics to really prove this contention, anecdotal evidence certainly bears it out. In my case, I started making applications for parallel level academic positions during my first three years, some of which yielded offers but not ones that were so good that they seemed worth the upheaval. After the third year I pretty much stopped getting even interviews, despite good publications and innovative teaching recognition. And once I earned tenure and promotion, not even that. In fact, the only people I know who have made it out of here (in the humanities, anyway) after three or more years have done so by transitioning into administration, making a downward move into community college teaching, moving out of academics, retiring, or dying. So it's not JUST adjuncting too long that may hurt your marketability, but staying in the wrong tenure track job too long also.
re: catch 22
From: Sue Basalla
Dear E. W.:
You sound awfully torn about your future, and I can certainly understand why. If you've already worked outside academia and made the choice to return to grad school, then I can see why it'd be especially hard to face the possibility of going back to where you started. A few thoughts:
First, re the Catch 22. My suggestion is to get a part-time job now, while you're in grad school. No matter how busy you are. Many posters to this list have vouched for how much faster they worked while otherwise employed. This will help balance your perspective on the dilemma, give you resources to hold out on the academic market longer if that's your wish, and keep your options open if you do have to walk away from academia. I know you worked outside academia before, but that was only one field - try something different for your part-time work -- it's a big world out there - don't dismiss it all in one swoop. Keep your options open, and then the Catch 22 will seem less drastic to you.
Second, don't worry too much about what your advisors say. Honestly. They were on the market a decade ago at least, for the most part, they're tenured, and they have probably never set foot outside academia. Just take care of your own future and your own happiness -- pleasing them is no guarantee of a job. Whatever you choose to do, do it because it makes you happy - not because you want to stay "pure" for some future hiring committee. The reasons people get academic jobs (or any other kind) are mysterious and fickle: personal connections, specialties that happen to fit certain odd shaped openings (film studies AND archaeology, e.g.), intradepartmental politics. You can't control any of it, so trying will just drive you bonkers.
Finally, I'm no expert on handling the pain of leaving academia, so I won't pretend to be. I knew that I didn't belong there, and I was relieved to walk away, although I did feel tremendously guilty at first for leaving the fold. I hope others on this list can help answer this question for you. But I can say this from personal experience. Your Ph.D. will never be wasted. It's a part of you. You earned it, and it's part of your identity. And the skills and information you learned will always come through for you in unexpected ways for the rest of your life.
Re: Switching Back and Forth
From: F. C.
Hello,
Some of you may be interested in the following event which is relevant to the current discussion:
Live Discussion: New Attitude For Adjuncts
If adjuncts stop complaining and start thinking like entrepreneurs, can they improve their careers? How can adjuncts adopt an attitude that will help them? You may submit comments now for a live discussion on Thursday, August 2, at 1 p.m. U.S. Eastern Daylight Time. --> SEE http://chronicle.com/colloquylive/2001/08/adjuncts/
re: Finding a Post-Academic Career
From: J. A.
I have found the discussion so far very informative. But I have one basic question that others have touched on and circled around, but here it is flat out -- How does one find a post-academic career job?
I have applied, I have networked and am still having trouble supporting myself in my chosen field. I would love to do free-lance writing, but am having trouble stringing enough jobs together to keep a roof over my head. So, in desperation, I am still doing what I was doing before I went to graduate school to pay the bills. But that cuts into the time I have available to write and research. So what is one to do?
re: Finding a Post-Academic Career/Surviving on Freelance
From: Maggie
J. A.,
Thanks for your question about surviving as a freelancer. I've been there and know that it's a stretch (and in many cases impossible) to pay the bills this way. Although Sue and I often sing the praises of freelancing, it's important to remember that for most people this is a temporary rather than a permanent solution.
The best freelance work isn't just work that pays the bills but work that resembles what you want to be doing as a fulltime job. In other words, if you want to work for a particular nonprofit, it's great to get your foot in the door as a freelancer. If they don't have any assignments, try doing work for another nonprofit so you can use the clips and out it on your resume.
Since your time is very limited, think strategically about the assignments you go after.
Good luck with the transition.
re: part time jobs for older postacademics?
From: Z. H.
Hello Maggie and Susan, Thank you for being guest speakers. I haven't read your book yet but I'm certainly going to. Can you offer some advice to a very non-typical member of this list? I have a long-ago PhD in classical studies (Duke 1974) and am now permanently ABD in historical linguistics from Penn. I'm 58 and not in very robust health, so I need to find a part-time job that I can do at home (maybe via the internet?). How does one discover what (if any) jobs like that exist? The things I really care about are language and animals. My ideal job might be something like editing something that helps animals. And my second question: How can someone who is 58 and not in robust health, not brimming with energy, possibly make herself look attractive to a potential employer?? Thanks very much.
re: work from home
From: Sue Basalla
Dear Z. H.,
Thanks for writing - I'm sorry to hear your health isn't good. But I think you've come up with a good idea in freelance writing/editing. Everything happens over email these days anyway -- even within the same office -- so working from home via computer is nothing unusual.
Since you like editing and animals, I'd try an approach like this:
1) Look up some animal welfare non-profit groups like the World Wildlife Fund, or PETA, or whatever interests you by keyword searching on Google.com. Spend some time getting to know each group. Sign up for their email newsletters, or any other free information to get an idea of the writing they might need.
2) Write a short, clear email to the head of communications, or head of PR (or some similar position) at each place saying you care deeply about the cause and would like to do freelance copyediting or writing for them. Include perhaps one or two high points of your qualifications: some relevant experience and an MA degree.
3) Be persistent. If they say they have nothing now, ask if you can email again in 3 weeks. If they say they have no money, offer do a piece as a volunteer. In fact, if you don't have any previous experience, volunteering will be a great idea for you -- do one piece as a volunteer, and then use that piece as your writing sample/calling card to get paying jobs.
4) No one needs to know your age or health status, so don't volunteer it. Everyone can understand a desire to work from home these days -- no need to explain further to anyone. It's illegal to discriminate on the basis of age or health, but you will be safest if you don't tell anyone more than they need to know. All the employer cares about is whether work is done well and on time -- make that your focus.
5) Keep hunting for clients. Freelance work is often about 80% hunting down clients, and 20% actual writing, but at least both can be done from home. Also be prepared for stiff self-employment taxes. A good rule of thumb is to immediately put aside 30% of what you earn in a savings account for tax time. Trust me, I learned this lesson the hard way. Ouch, ouch, ouch...
Good luck! I hope this turns out to be a good solution for you. :)
Re: work from home plus a little cheer
From: F. N.
Hello all,
I was attracted to this subject line as it is my personal "holy grail..." a full telecommute job. I have been lucky enough to find a satisfying transition out of academia straight into an internet startup where I do web development. I telecommute twice a week so as to enable my kids to stay home with me. In my experience you probably need to work from an office for a while before making the work-from-home jump, but everyone takes a different path.
The internet has saved my career! And I'll bet it can help a lot of people on this list.
I wanted to plug About.com for those who want to do freelance writing from home. Try http://freelancewrite.about.com and http://telecommuting.about.com, sign up for their newsletters, and start networking.
This brings me to my second point: you _can_ find a career outside the academy that has some relevance to your Ph.D. (shameless self-promotion coming up:) I just landed a great gig as the new About.com guide to French Culture (http://frenchculture.about.com). I have a big audience: 3000 newsletter subscribers, 25,000+ page views a week...more than I could ever reach teaching one-on-one in a classroom. I really believe that we academics who decide to exit the ivory tower can make a big impact on the outside world, bigger than we perhaps could in a classroom setting. Take your specialty and market it!
All is not doom and gloom, folks...we ex-academics can make a big difference.
all the best in your job searches.
HOW TO MANAGE THE TRANSITION TO A POSTACADEMIC CAREER
Re: Finding a Post-Academic Career
From: M. C.
Dear Maggie, Susan, and others, I have really enjoyed the discussion so far and I enjoyed reading your book, Susan and Maggie. Thanks to all of you for your great comments and insights. I hope my question doesn't sound too basic, but in some ways it may be. Having come to the realization that I may actually not like being in an academic department (I have found the political bickering too much for me) I am ready to seriously think about making a transition that will be fruitful and rewarding. I intend to defend my literature dissertation this fall and go on the market but with an eye towards others things. I will also be employed for the year as an assistant visiting professor teaching four classes each semester. My question: How does one find the time to begin transitioning into a new job? The informational interviews seem like a good idea, but I have never done anything but be in school (went straight from undergrad to grad), and with this next year so full, how can I begin to narrow my interests? I liked the idea of volunteering somewhere, but again, with 100 students next fall and 100 next spring, that seems like a lot to do. All of my jobs have been in the service of this degree, which is to say that I don't know how to translate them into viable, seemingly marketable skills. I guess I was hoping for some kind of time line? Or a sense of what to work towards in the transition mode so that I might find something, say next fall? And keeping in mind that my committee and advisor would not favor this decision so looking to them for support is out of the question. And keeping in mind that my university is very geared towards undergraduate concerns. And keeping in mind that there are many ABD ghosts at my school that continue to adjunct rather than think about transitioning, so going to post-academic folks may be difficult. Any suggestions or ideas would be great. I would also love to get your sense of job counselors or head-hunters?
re: Transition Timeline
From: Maggie
M. C.,
Thanks for your question about finding time to research careers outside the academy. This is a pressing issue for many graduate students (it certainly was in my case!).
It's hard to give you the timeline you ask for since every job search is different. But here's a rough outline of how it might work:
Fall: Devote a few hours a month (however many you can carve out) to researching potential careers at your university's career center. Ask the career counselors for help in crafting a resume. Carve out the hours to do this by being very disciplined about the amount of time you spend on your teaching duties--taking away a few hours a month won't hurt your students. Try to find a buddy who's also working on a job search--set small goals and hold each other to them.
One goal might be to set up one or two or four informational interviews (however many you can handle with your heavy teaching load) before semester's end. Ask your contacts what kind of experience might make you a valuable candidate (writing, research, etc.) in their field.
Spring: Must you teach this Spring in order to complete your degree? If you're teaching purely for economic reasons, there are probably some other options that will help pay the bills while leaving you more time for a job search. If you have to teach, try to schedule a few more informational interviews and think about how to fill in gaps in your resume (freelance, volunteer, etc.) Try to set up an internship or volunteer job for the summer.
Summer: Make this your summer to get more experience in your chosen field (since you went straight from undergrad to grad, I'm assuming you need to beef up your resume). Volunteer work, internships, temping, freelancing, etc can all lead to a job for Fall 2002.
Hope this helps.
re: Instructional Design
From: J. J.
Uhh...could you maybe say what "instructional design" is? Do you mean designing curriculums, or "training" programs?
re: What is an instructional designer
From: A. N.
From what I have seen, instructional design is a catch-all term can mean a number of things. Often it means someone who designs training programs both on- and offline. Recently I had an interview with a woman at the FAA who needed IDs to design the courses given to airline safety inspectors. No knowledge of airplane safety was required but they did need someone who could put together a syllabus. Knows how to drill discrete packets of information as well as teach more advanced analytical skills. Online is more interesting in my opinion. I have worked as a curriculum developer for online tutorials and study guides for an academic site. Outside the ivory tower there are even more opportunities to design online learning for techies, who have to play constant catch-up with knowledge in the field. One of the main problems to making a transition of this kind, I feel, is that many academics disdain the business world and information conveyed in it. Many others have a tinge of the Luddite disease when it comes to technology. However, if one is a person who can market themselves as a broad-minded generalist, they should do all right when searching for a job teaching anything, even airline safety.
RE: instructional design
From: L. W.
On the topic of "instructional design," does anyone out there know whether or not there are any agents who represent freelance instructional designers? That's a field I'd be interested in exploring on a freelance basis, but not if it would take so much time to hunt up clients that there wouldn't be time to do the work.
Sue and Maggie, what did your research on agents tell you about the variety of agents and agencies out there and what are the best ways to approach them?
HOW TO DEAL WITH AN UNSUPPORTIVE DEPARTMENT
Re: Guest Speakers Introduction
From: L. G.
Hello everyone... My question for Maggie and Sue is this: What do you do when the people in your department don't see non-academic jobs as an option? In other words, I would not be considered serious if I let on to the "wrong" people that I have no interest in the academy. Frankly, I'm getting a Ph.D. for personal, rather than professional, reasons. I get flak for just taking classes outside of my department... Thanks!
re: dept. not supportive
From: Sue Basalla
Dear L. G.,
Thanks for your great question: "What do you do when the people in your department don't see non-academic jobs as an option? Frankly, I'm getting a Ph.D. for personal, rather than professional, reasons."
Isn't the peer pressure in grad school amazing? It's like 7th grade all over again. But the answer to this one is easy: ignore them, and do whatever you want to do! The pettiness is just silly. Why do they care what you choose to do with your life? (Of course, you're stuck with these people for a few years, so you can always downplay your feelings in front of them in the interest of getting along.)
I remember well people from my own dept. who were mocked for being "not serious" enough because they were considering postacademic work and treated grad school like a job, and you know what? They ended up being the only two people to get academic jobs that year - and good ones at that!
And if you're sure you don't want to go the academic route, I'd throw out this challenge: be loud and proud. Buck the peer pressure, and watch people come out of the woodwork to ask you for advice. Every dept. could use a postacademic activist. :)
re: dept. not supportive
From: C. L.
Regarding the discussion about what to say to advisors, etc., who would be unsympathetic to the decision to leave academic: I agree with those people who say that basically, it's none of their business, but on the other hand, I do think people need to be wary about what they say around the department. On a strictly pragmatic level, these people do have power over us, and we do want them to continue to take us seriously as we finish. We may hate to admit it, but many advisors will take a different attitude towards a student who they know isn't going to apply for academic jobs. At this point, I'm sure that if she really thought about it, my advisor would know I'm not going back to the academy (she's knows where I'm working right now), but I haven't actually said that to her and don't plan to until the very end.
PUBLISHING AS AN INDEPENDENT SCHOLAR
Re: How did you place your book for publication?
From: W.T.
Hi Maggie and Susan--
Thanks for being guest speakers on wrk4us this week! Could you write about how you placed your book for publication? I'm curious to learn about the ways you brought your publisher (and/or agent) on board for this project. I hope you also can comment on whether those strategies are similar to the ways someone looking for postacademic work would go about convincing a prospective employer to hire them. Thanks!
RE: Guest Speakers Introduction
From: M. T.
I was wondering if our guest speakers might be able to share a little bit of information about the nuts and bolts of getting their book written and published. I am thinking more and more about life as an independent scholar (note to Paula that given a lot of the back and forth on this list about the satisfactions of academic work but the dis-satisfactions about the academy itself, it might be nice to feature guest speakers on this topic) and am interested in learning whether or not it is possible to support oneself writing books on scholarly topics for a popular audience. Specifically, I would be interested in learning about whether or not one can support oneself doing this... more crassly how much can you expect to earn producing a book a year (probably not enough) and what kind of deals can be negotiated with a publisher.
Any thoughts are insights you might have would be greatly appreciated.
re: popular books on scholarly topics
From: I. A.
I'm not sure if this is quite what you mean, but an ex-grad-school-mate of mine supports himself writing Idiots Guides or one of those types of series. I forget the details, but some are on topics like Nietzsche or Shakespeare, while others have been on things like the Titanic and, I think, angels. The level of discourse is quite simple, but you still get to do research for a living. He gets a flat fee per book and works from home. His diss was in Renaissance lit.
Re: Guest Speakers Introduction
From: N. R.
I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussion and some thoughts as well as a question.
M. T., I'm also really interested in your question about writing books. I've noticed that yes, there are some PhDs who are writing nonfiction for a general audience and seem to be making a living at it. How much they are making, I don't know. I'm curious too. I suppose it depends on your advance and that depends on who your agent is and what kind of a publishing deal they get for you. Maggie and Sue, can you provide any further information about this? I would also like to write books, though I have concerns about the stability and financial implications of being a full-time writer.
One of the best things I decided to do when I began work on my dissertation (which I just finished!) was to write freelance journalism for magazines and newspapers (arts & culture stuff, mainly) instead of teach. I have absolutely loved the freelance journalism I've done and have learned a ton about interviewing and writing (as an unexpected benefit, freelancing improved the quality of my academic writing). I should add, however, that freelancing is a ton of work for not a lot of money, and not always the best thing to balance with a dissertation (aside from the flexibility of freelancing -- otherwise, I found freelance writing to be just as challenging, in different kinds of ways, as writing a diss). I would have starved a long time ago if not for other jobs (including working at web sites and for the past year at a magazine), a fellowship, and a partner with a steady job.
On another note, did anyone see last week's Chronicle of Higher Education? A professor named Wendy Williams wrote a column about gender discrepancies among PhDs who seek academic jobs -- according to her numbers, far more women than men decide not to undertake national job searches for academic positions. Does anyone have any thoughts about this as it might relate to the issues that we're discussing?
re: Supporting Yourself as an Author
From: Maggie
M. T., N. R., and others interested in careers as independent scholars,
I'm happy to talk a little about the mechanics of getting our book published as well as the reality of the proceeds. Here's how it worked for us:
- We came up with the idea after lots of late-night "What are we going to do with our lives?" conversations. We turned it into a book proposal after consulting a few books about how to write queries and proposals ("Writing Great Query Letters" by Linda Collier Cool was especially helpful).
- We found an agent by searching through directories (a process I've already described).
- Our helpful agent helped us polish the proposal and managed to interest two major trade publishers in the idea.
- We selected FSG even though they offered us a slightly lower advance than the other bidder because we thought (and still think) that they produce some of the most beautifully designed mass market books around.
So the good news is that it's entirely possible to turn the right idea into a book. The bad news is that it's tough to live on the proceeds. Granted, our book is targeted to a very small audience, but we're not even close to being able to live off it. In fact, if you divided what we've made by the number of hours we worked on it, you'd come up with a pretty pitiful wage. As you may have noticed, we haven't quit our day jobs.
I know, however, that there are some people out there who do make a living as authors. I'll second M. T.'s request to Paula to find a few independent scholars who might be willing to serve as guest speakers and tell us how it's done!
Maggie
re: being a scholar outside the Ivory Tower
From: K. P.
Hi, all --
I noticed a lot of interest in the topic of how to continue to work as a scholar while earning your paycheck in the private sector. I thought you'd all be interested in seeing this very nice column, written by Kevin Walzer, a PhD who works as an editor:
http://www.chronicle.com/jobs/2001/05/2001052503c.htm
(apologies if this article has already been posted) --
re: private school teaching
From: E. P.
Hi all,
I'm finishing up my diss in English and had a quick question about private school teaching. Have any of you done it? What is the burn-out-rate? Do you find it fulfilling and how is the market out there? Thanks for the info.
RE: private school teaching
From: I. A.
Hi E. P. et al,
I interviewed a bunch of teachers for an article about private school teaching a while back. Consensus seemed to be that it's great if you like the teaching part of teaching as opposed to research; some still did research but not too many were supported by their schools or given much time to do it. Many said the kids are better-prepared scholastically than many college freshmen (depends what college, I guess). People generally depicted it as very intense, but rewarding; you're overworked, involved with students on many levels, usually expected to help with activities outside the classroom, but have a fair degree of teaching autonomy and can be important in students' lives.
re: Thank You Guest Speakers!!
From: Paula Foster
Well, it's Friday, and we have had a great week with our two Guest Speakers. A hearty round of applause for Sue Basalla and Maggie Debelius for giving us so many practical suggestions for making the transition from inside to outside the academy. Thank you Sue and Maggie!
Kudos as well to the subscribership. You all did a great job of asking good questions, chiming in when appropriate, and keeping the tone supportive. Good work!
Discussion may continue, of course--just because the "official" part of the discussion is over doesn't mean we all have to shut up now.
Have a great weekend,
re: Thanks to all!
From: Sue Basalla and Maggie Debelius
Everyone,
We'd like to close out our week by thanking all of you for joining us, especially those of you who chimed in with your suggestions and experiences. We'd also like to thank the incredibly-organized Paula Foster Chambers for inviting us to participate and showing us the ropes. Good luck to all of you!