FINDING YOUR MISSION IN LIFE
The following Guest Speaker Discussion originally took place on WRK4US in July of 2003. Because WRK4US has a confidentiality policy, all names and email addresses have been altered or removed, except for the moderator's and the Guest Speakers'.
The discussion can be read in two ways- by simply scrolling down and reading the whole thing, or by clicking on the topical links below, which take you to specific places within the discussion. The discussion can also be printed out in its entirety for your reading convenience.
Thanks to Felice Aarons who edited this discussion and prepared it for posting on the web. If you are interested in editing a future discussion, your help will be much appreciated; email Paula Foster, WRK4US List Manager, at pfchambers@sbcglobal.net
Introductions
Career Coaching as a Profession
Identifying Interests, Skills and Possibilities
Personal Fulfillment vs. Financial Stability
A Subscriber's Testimonial on Leaving Academe
How to Break Into a Desired Field
Returning to School
Applying to Jobs
Battling Depression in the Job Search
Dealing with Problems Even in an Ideal Job
Wrapping Up With How to Begin the Process of Changing Careers
Closing Remarks
Introductions
Barbara Voss's Introduction
Dear Work4Us members,
I grew up in an academic family. My mother was a teacher. My father had his Ph.D. in psychology and was a university professor. When I was a child, he brought home white lab rats with pink eyes and a T-maze from the psychology lab. I learned to run the rats through the maze, but grew up thinking there were only two choices in life - going to the right or left. (Or possibly, if you're well fed, sitting still.) This map of the world stimulated my need to develop more choices for myself and others.
I attended Colorado College, and later transferred and received my BA in History from the University of Pittsburgh; what better major could I find then studying anything I wanted in History! Then, after attending the University of Wisconsin - Madison, I received my MA in History of Science. Another pivotal transition time.
Feeling inundated with Western thinking, within a year, I found a job teaching English in Nagasaki, Japan to high school and college students. I had always intuitively felt connected to Japan and had, since 4th grade, a Japanese pen pal, who I finally met. While there for five years, I opened my own business teaching English composition, conversation, etc. to all age groups, everyone from kindergarteners to doctors and commissioners for the Mayor's office. I also worked as a radio announcer for FM Nagasaki and interviewed many rock stars making their way up the charts in Japan on their way to fame in America; also I shared one show with a Japanese announcer that we did in Japanese about comparisons between Japanese and American culture.
While I was in Japan, my mother passed away from cancer. This event influenced me tremendously; it reoriented my focus from an extensive journey outward, where I traveled all over Asia, to a journey inward. I returned to live in California, and started work as a technical writer in software companies, and eventually decided to attend graduate school at night. I continued my personal therapy, started meditating and continued that for the past 20 years. And I began to study kung fu. I received my MA in Marriage, Family, Child Therapy at Phillips Graduate, in Los Angeles, CA.
Continuing to work in software companies, I worked my way up as a business analyst, to a manager of business operations, and up to the Director of Business Planning. In the evening, I was an MFT intern completing my 3000 MFT intern hours in non-profit agencies. And I am now in the final stages of completing my license as a therapist. My MFT background taught me extensively about systems theory, which I used in the corporate jobs; for example, I identified what levers of change to use in the business processes to produce better results; used my group process skills to build cross-functional teams; coached executives, VPs, CEOs on managing relationship issues.
Like many people in software, I was laid off from the software company last year in the post - 9/11 downsizing of the world. This became my opportunity to open my own coaching business Inner Compass Coaching, and attend the Coaches Training Institute and College of Executive Coaching for additional coaching background. I love coaching; this is my passion!
I have focused on serving clients in transition from one work place to another, one culture to another, one dream to another, or developing and taking action on plans to achieving their dreams. My clients come from a variety of backgrounds, e.g. corporate, self-employed, academic, non-profit, and are moving over into other work cultures. Together we discover their passions in life, and translate them into how it looks each day to bring more of that into their life. Making choices and managing their life changes gives them more freedom, success, balance and life satisfaction in all areas of their life. I like particularly working with career-oriented people, such as executive women, to guide them to success while maintaining their life balance in all arenas, i.e. spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical.
Logistically, first, I meet either in person or over the phone with a potential client for an hour session, providing a sample session of coaching. The client then signs up for a coaching engagement of 3 or 6 months, or sometimes longer. I coach once a week for 45 minutes over the phone. Each week the client receives a question(s) to ponder and a homework assignment(s). We typically talk for 3 weeks and are off for one week, in which I give the client larger assignments. The results are that the clients feel happier, increase their level of satisfaction in multiple areas of their life, identify their life passions and develop and move ahead on concrete plans to achieve their goals.
As a coach, I look at what systems you're in. Particularly in this discussion group, I am curious not only about your career questions, but also the context of those questions in your life circumstances. For example, some of you may be thinking about having a family, traveling around the world on a cruise ship, or learning how to make pottery.
Finally, I wanted to open up the discussion with some questions: Have you identified what you are passionate about, what you value, where your juice is? Are you moving toward increasing playing with those passions each day, in your career, all relationships and all life activities? What is keeping you from doing this? How can you, each week take steps to move in this direction more? What are you interested in changing today?
I look forward to hearing from all of you.
In anticipation,
Barbara
Hello All,
When I was asked to be a 'guest speaker' on this discussion, I was excited both by the topic and the audience. As a Career and Personal Coach, I work with most of my clients helping them find their mission, their passion, their ideal professional and personal life situation. This is what excites me professionally! When I started my own business 3 years ago, one of my first clients was a PhD candidate trying to complete her dissertation and beginning her academic job search. I was introduced to a new world of talented, creative, committed professionals, of stressful, rewarding, politicized work environments and of people struggling with the similar questions of "What do I really want to do with my life? What are all of my possibilities? And how do I figure it all out when I have more important things to do, like my research?" Since that initial client, I've worked with numerous PhD candidates supporting them to answer and act on these, and many other questions.
Answering questions is what coaching is about. To give you a little background about coaching, it's a process where client and coach work together to support the client in designing what he/she wants in life. It can be very specific (I want a new job) or very broad (I want less stress). The work is based on the client's goals, values, preferences and priorities. We work together to get clarity on these, and then determine actions that will move the client towards his/her goals. Coaching is very action-oriented, focuses on the present and future, and assumes that the client is creative, resourceful and whole. It is not therapy or consulting. One of the basic assumptions that the coach makes is that the client is the expert on what is right for him/her. The coach does not tell the client what to do; the coach asks questions to help the client get to the right answers for him/herself. I work with my clients on the phone. We have three calls scheduled calls per month, and follow-up with email and additional short phone calls in between sessions to support the client with what they are working on.
Paula asked me to give a little information about my background. Coaching is really about the client, so I'm going to be brief about me:
BA Economics, University of Pennsylvania; MS Counseling, Villanova University. Worked 10 years at three Philadelphia area colleges/universities as a student affairs professional. (Assistant Director of Resident Life, University Career Counselor) Made a leap to the corporate world and worked 4 years in Human Resources, helping employees with career development and job satisfaction. This is where I began coaching. Graduate of Corporate Coach University. Left the corporate world to start my own coaching business, and have found my 'Mission!' Currently, President of the Philadelphia Area Coaches Alliance.
So how does one find their mission in life? Unfortunately, there isn't one road map that works for everyone. I believe it is a process of discovering what matters to you, what excites you, what you would do even if you weren't getting paid. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi calls it "Flow," Martin Seligman calls it "Authentic Happiness" and some athletes call it "The Zone." Of course, since we are talking about careers, we also need to look at realities, too. Where do job security, salary and other values rank in importance to you? What talents and skills do you want to use every day? What is your ideal work environment? Who do you know that can support you on this journey? Having a team to support you during this process is essential. Colleagues, friends/family, advisors, mentors can contribute resources as you move along this path. What one action can you take today which will allow you to explore a new professional possibility?
I believe it's also very important to take good care of yourself during this exploration period. A job search, or any major change, is often a very stressful and frustrating time. It's important to reward any 'victories' that you have during the process, and to do something for yourself each day, no matter how small.
As we begin this week together, I invite you to think about what you want next for yourself, without limitations. I look forward to hearing about your situation, and if I can support you or answer any questions, please drop a note to the listserv.
My best,
Julie Cohen
Dear WRK4US members,
Hi - I'm really looking forward to the discussion this week.
I expected that I would have a "career epiphany" one day and realize, once and for all, what I was supposed to do with the rest of my life. I've done just about every career assessment out there (and not because it's what I now do for a living) and still didn't find the definitive answer I expected. I've worked in both the non-profit and corporate sectors. I started out in meeting planning, moved into governance services, then membership and development, then oversaw the delivery of chapter services internationally, then moved into a large public company as Director of International Operations. And, even though I enjoyed most of the work, I always knew that I hadn't found my fit.
I have a B.A. in Sociology from the University of Windsor and did absolutely no career planning prior to graduation. While I was working full-time, I decided to attend the University of North Texas to pursue my Master's degree in Training and Development. Again, without a really clear plan in mind as to how I would use it (my intuition was tuned in, even if I wasn't on board).
My slow, reluctant transition into career coaching came out of a happy hour interaction with a former colleague. Driving home that night, I realized that if I could create the perfect job for myself, it would be career development coaching. But being that I'm a rather practical person, I scoffed at such an outrageously risky career choice and told myself that I should just stay on the career path I was on (next step was VP).
What happened next isn't typical of most career transition stories, but it profoundly shaped mine. I was suddenly widowed at age 31. In a moment, my whole world was different. And from there, I was left with an unshakeable knowing that if I didn't create the career that I truly wanted, I would regret it always. So, I left my corporate job and began the professional certification process for coaching through the Coaches' Training Institute in California. I am now a certified coach, specializing in career development for professionals. In addition to my private coaching practice, I am an adjunct faculty member at Clark College in Vancouver, Washington where I teach Career Exploration and other human development classes.
During my time in executive education, I got to work with, and secretly study, extremely successful business people as well as my own colleagues, many of whom had unconventional career paths. I was very curious about the question "What makes people successful in their work?" Three things that I noticed stand out - those that were successful were connected (they built successful relationships), they always seemed to do what they were good at (and they found the opportunities that fit), and they stepped outside of their comfort zone with great frequency.
My "typical" client is a professional who's struggling with the question "What should I do with my life?" And, I often have clients that are concerned that they haven't had the career success that they thought they would have had at this stage in their lives. While I coach most clients around career issues, my approach is holistic - looking at you as the whole person. Around career issues, I focus on three areas: Discovering your unique gifts, talents, passions, values. And finally, developing a plan to get you from where you are to where you want to be. Clients very quickly move to action when they get clarity. I work with clients over the phone, three times a month, for 30-45 minutes. When we first start working together, our first few sessions are longer, as we're building the foundation and establishing your agenda. Between sessions, clients work on challenges and homework.
I'd like to offer a couple of questions for you to ponder: Who and what do you crave to be connected with? How will you know when you've found your path? What's one risky thing that you could do, right now, to find your path? And, more practically, if you were to ask three of your closest friends what you should do, what would they tell you?
Warmly,
Stacey
Career Coaching as a Profession
Subscriber Y.E. posts an initial question on entering the career coaching business:
I would like to ask Barbara, Julie and Stacey how they went about implementing the goal of becoming an active career and personal coach. That is a hard business to "break" into--how did you acquire clients and develop a business after getting your certificate? Any resources on this subject you could recommend?
Thanks much,
Y.E.
Julie replies to Y.E. on how she became a coach:
Hi Y.E.,
I was working in a corporate Human Resources position and was part of a team that was developing a Coaching program for our employees. Fortunately, I was able to get training (from Corporate Coach University) and clients while I was working. After a year of loving what I was doing, I decided I wanted to do it full time (without my other HR responsibilities). I worked with my own coach in helping to develop a plan for going out on my own. I started initially with a few private clients in the evening while I was working full-time, and as my own business began to grow, I transitioned out of my full-time job.
If you are interested in 'breaking' in to the business, I have a few suggestions.
- Get coach training. There are MANY organizations that offer training, in different modalities (phone classes, weekend seminars, web-based). The International Coach Federation (ICF) is the professional organization for this field. You can learn a lot about the field at their website.
- Get involved in the profession. There are hundreds of regional chapters of the ICF, and will likely be one near you. It's a great way to meet other coaches, learn about what they're doing and how they did it, get lots of support, and build a community/network.
- Work with a coach. Coaching uses a 'success model,' so it makes sense that a coach would have a coach...designing their life the way they want it to be. I've worked with a coach since I've started in the field, and continue to do so to make me more effective professionally and personally.
Regarding acquiring clients, once I decided to go out on my own, I sent emails to all of my friends, family and colleagues letting them know about this new direction in my life, shared the excitement I had about what I was doing, and explained how coaching works. I offered a free coaching session for anyone so they could experience coaching (which I still do, and is pretty standard among coaches) and a few people took me up on the offer. Slowly, but surely, the clients that I began working with, began referring others to me. I continually look for opportunities to share what I do with others with the intent of providing a service to whomever may benefit.
I have a list of resources (website and books) that I'd be happy to share with you, but I don't want to bog down the list. If you'd like me to send it to you, I can send it off-line. Please email me directly at (julie@juliecohencoaching.com), but here are a few books that you might want to check out:
Co-Active Coaching, Whitworth, Kimsey-House and Sandahl
The Portable Coach , Thomas Leonard
Take Time for Your Life , Cheryl Richardson
Let me know if you have any other questions,
Julie
Barbara relates how she became a coach:
Hi Y.E.,
I had been doing internal coaching in a software company among other duties. I attended the Coaches Training Institute, and took some additional classes at the College of Executive Coaching. I started doing individual coaching while working full time jobs. I have read a lot about career coaching, attended courses on it, and talked with a lot of people about it because peoples' work is tied in with their values, and gives meaning to their life. I found myself in a feedback loop of advertising myself as a life coach, but having almost every client initially come to me with career issues. I studied career issues more. And more clients came with career issues in the context of their life coaching.
As far as breaking into it, I love the books Julie is recommending. I also like Barbara Sher's works, Robert Hargrove's Masterful Coaching , Bringing Out the Best in People by Alan McGinnis, and David Whyte's books.
Marketing any business is a challenge. Some ideas:
- Identify your own target market or audience as best as you can today and start there.
- I participate in societies where my potential clients are, for example Women in Technology International (WITI), NAFE, etc.
- Also, like Julie, I told EVERYONE I know about my new business direction. I sent out broadcast emails, cards, and am continuously working on getting the word out.
- I also do presentations on various topics, do free half hour sample sessions.
- I also studied, listened to tapes on, or attended classes on marketing, sales (like Brian Tracy), and used our local Small Business Asso, and National Association of Women Business Owners (NAWBO) resources.
- Again, agreeing with Julie, there are numerous resources available; Coach U for a nominal fee, for example, has many business forms available. The ICF local chapters have great speakers and unlimited resources in the people attending there.
- And I follow my intuition, to show up where I feel I need to go, or to talk to people I feel "guided" to talk to about my business; clients come to me in unusual ways sometimes when I do that.
Please feel free to contact me at barbaravoss@innercompasscoaching.biz
Barbara
Y.E. thanks Barbara Voss for her reply:
Barbara:
Thanks so much for your extremely useful (and fascinating!!!) reply to my question about how one finds work as a coach.. I also enjoyed your first posting. I find that uniquely, coaches' approach to the content side and the business side often work in tandem, and that is so interesting.
With much appreciation,
Y.E.
Stacy Lane replies to the question:
Hi Y.E.,
I left the corporate world prior to committing to becoming a coach. I felt that I needed to be out of that environment totally in order to get a clear picture of what I wanted. This isn't always possible, but I don't think I would have made such a risky career change without that space. I think it can be very helpful to create a vision statement about what you're moving towards, and then build a transition plan from there.
I got my first few clients like Julie and Barbara - by telling my immediate circle of friends, family, colleagues and acquaintances about my new career direction. I'm also involved in industry groups (ICF, career management professionals, women in business), which is a great way to build a network for referrals and to be connected. Like Barbara said, just start with what you know and go from there.
The only other thing I would add to Julie's and Barbara's comments would be to talk to as many coaches as you can about what they do, how they do it, and what advice they'd have. From here, you'll learn more about yourself and your direction.
Good luck and please use me as a resource if you'd like.
Stacey Lane
Subscriber D.M. asks about being a career coach:
To our speakers,
The discussion this week has been fascinating thus far, and I'm particularly intrigued by many of your replies that pose questions to inspire reflections and self-consideration!
However, no one has yet asked the pragmatic questions that we're likely all wondering about, so I figured I'd go ahead and do it here:
How much do you charge for your services? Since you're all currently self-employed, how do you take care of health insurance? What about plans/savings for retirement? And do you all have partners who help to support whatever type of family unit you're a part of?
D.M.
Stacey responds to D.M.'s questions:
I'm diving in here.
Fees - My fees are $300 per month with a minimum three month commitment. I offer packages and discounts depending on individual needs.
Health insurance - I am self-insured (I made this decision after talking to lots of self-employed friends). I have lousy coverage compared to what I used to have, but it is adequate.
Support - Part of my personal odyssey has been to examine my relationship with money (I discovered that much of my self-identity was related to my paycheck). So, the recent discussion about money/earnings has been fascinating to me. I do earn less money now (it's a little staggering when you consider that an additional 40% of your salary can be added in benefits) but my career change was a choice I made when I could see how the money/security issue was at the root of most of my decisions. When I decided to do what I'm doing now, I moved from Texas to Oregon and was able to make some different choices about my lifestyle. Some choices have been easy, some quite difficult. I live with my partner, a self-employed commercial photographer (read: unpredictable income). No children, just 4 wonderful, aging dogs, which I know opens up some options that aren't there for others.
Julie responds to D.M.'s question:
I charge $350/month, which includes 3 40-minutes sessions, unlimited email interaction and quick phone calls in between the scheduled calls.
I am in a fortunate position that my health insurance is covered by my husband's employer. I have retirement plans from my previous jobs, as well as IRA since I've been self-employed.
Julie
U.M. asks how to substitute the services of a career coach:
Do any of the guests have any suggestions for-- What do we do when we feel like we're in a deeper hole-- or have more questions than we could possibly ask and answer in this week-- or don't even quite know what questions to ask-- and we've got nowhere near the resources to engage a life or career coach?
Julie responds to U.M.'s question:
Hi U.M.,
Regarding coaching, I can speak for myself, in that I work with some clients at reduced rate, if they can benefit from my services and cannot afford my full fee. When you mention 'deeper hole' and the discussion of depression from a previous email, there are other professionals (counselors, psychologists, psychiatrists) who also work on sliding scales if you do not have insurance which covers these services. There are also non-profit agencies which provide career counseling services and mental health services with sliding scales (pay what you can afford.)
Hope this helps,
Julie
Barbara responds to D.M.'s question:
Greetings all,
In answer to the question about pragmatics, through my business Inner Compass Coaching LLC, we offer various packages.
Individual Life Coaching.
I offer a free 30 -45 min. sample session, in person, or over the phone.
My fees are $300 / mo. with a minimum of a 3 month contract. I offer 3 - 45 min. sessions a month and offer brief phone calls and email consultations (such as providing support, providing feedback on resumes, etc.) during the week related to the client's goals. The coaching is done over the phone.
Life Coaching Circles
Stacey Lane and I do group coaching. We offer 1 - 60 minute call a week for 3 months of coaching for groups of 6 people (there will be one week off each month). The circles are an opportunity to connect with others, learn some powerful tools to start using right away, and serve to keep you focused on track. The group rate is $125 / month per person, or $300 per person if you pre-pay for all 3 months.
We have 4 different Coaching Circles starting soon:
Women's Career Network Group:
All Women's Mastermind Support Group
Starts Wednesday, August 6 from 5-6:00 pm PT
What Should I Do With My Life?
Exploring, Knowing, and Acting on Your Life Mission
Starts Wednesday, August 6 from 1-2:00 pm PT
When do I Make a Career Move?
Balancing Your Life and Moving Forward
Starts Thursday, August 7 from 5-6 pm PT
How Do I Make a Career Transition?:
Learning Concrete Tools for Job Hunting
Starts Thursday, August 7 from 6-7 pm PT
Organizational Development Work
Inner Compass Coaching also offers consulting engagements with organizations. Our fees vary based on the length of the engagement, business goals, combination of packages. We offer:
- DISC Personality Assessment and 360° Assessment Tools
- Change and Crisis Management Training
- Strategic planning and goal setting
- Team Building
- Conflict Resolution and Stress Management Training
- Leadership Training
- Product Life Cycle Management
Barbara Voss
Inner Compass Coaching, LLC
barbaravoss@InnerCompassCoaching.biz
818-703-0132
Stacey Lane, CPCC
Career and Life Coach
503.285.4440
stacey@staceylane.net
Identifying Interests, Skills, and Possibilities
T.R. posts an initial question about how to pick a field that corresponds with hobbies and interests:
Let me start with my question and then follow up with why I'm asking it. (Hopefully this is appropriate for the discussion and not too terribly vague.)
Once I have an idea of the kinds of skills I'd like to use in my work and the type of environment in which I think I'd thrive, what are some strategies you'd suggest for figuring out a "content area"
(i.e., publishing, development, finance, etc.) in which to focus my search?
In my own job search, I think I've made a good deal of progress in the former, but very little in the latter. I've read/been told to look at what I do in my free time to help me identify what I might like to do for my career, but that doesn't seem helpful for me. My "for fun" activities all satisfy my creative side and work with things -- gardening, sewing costumes for non-profit theater groups, lots of home repair projects, etc. But my analytic skills are much stronger than my creative ones, and I'd much rather work with people than objects. So if my hobbies can't show me the way, what else might?
This has been a challenging process for me, and I'm looking forward to the week's discussion.
Sincerely,
T.R.
Stacey responds to T.R.'s question:
Hi T.R.,
This is a question that comes up for many who are considering some sort of career change that will take them out of a known field into something very different. What will help guide you? I can tell you've thought a lot about this because you've articulated two of the important factors related to career satisfaction - skills and environment. Now, the content piece... I think this is a great opportunity to let your intuition work for you -- Start paying attention to what newspaper and magazine articles you're drawn to. Notice what conversation topics really get your juices flowing. Ask yourself who's job you'd like to have. And then start exploring.
Happy exploring!
Stacey Lane
Julie follows up with more questions:
Hi T.R.,
I'm curious to know more about the skills you'd like to use and the environment in which you'd like to work. You've mentioned your 'creative side'...I'd encourage you to use it as you continue to explore. Have you written down all of the skills and the characteristics of this environment?
As you do this, what other requirements must be present in your work. Add these to your list. This is the picture that you're creating. As this picture gets more details, I'd encourage you to start the 'content area' exploration. Who in your network utilizes some/any/one/all of the skills in their work? Make plans to speak with them about what they do and how they apply it. Who do you know that does something that interests you, makes your curious? Speak with them. Most people (friends, family, colleagues, friends of friends, colleagues of colleagues, etc.) are willing to talk about what they do. As you learn more about possibilities, I believe a few things will begin to show up for you as real possibilities.
Another exercise is to look at actual job listings. In the 'old days,' it would be the classified ads...now it's all of the internet sites with job listings (to name a few of the MANY-- Job Hunters Bible, Monster, check out your university career center for listings to peruse). As you read positions, which ones make you want to know more?
Again, the patterns that draw you towards similar areas will show you where to explore further.
I think the biggest challenge is going from the ideal, 'dream' job scenario to the concrete, real world. This is where utilizing your network (and the network of others!) is key.
Let me know if this helps.
Julie
Barbara responds to T.R. with an assignment:
Hi T.R.,
You are very talented. Your questions are those of someone with many options. And there is no right answer, just what you want to do.
How about try on jobs, like you would be trying on the costumes you make? Could you try publishing one year, finance another, and development another? Keep track of what you like, dislike, and feel neutral about in each job you try on.
I have a brainstorming assignment for you: Get a big sheet of paper and some fun magic markers and make 2 columns. Write all your analytical skills you like to use in one column, and your hands-on skills you like to use in the other column. Then, brainstorm with a friend, who knows you, and play with different combinations. Taking what you wrote below and combining an analytical skill with a hands-on skill, I get: financing home repairs; publishing gardening books. It doesn't have to be that literal, but see what comes up when you and a friend play with the columns.
I'm taking a leap here, but I have a sense that you'd be happy with many different jobs, maybe even doing many jobs with different content over your lifetime, and maybe more than one job each day (e.g. two part-time jobs).
Have fun.
Barbara
T.R. describes her background:
First, thanks very much for your comments. Several of them helped me look t this process in new (although not yet comfortable) ways. And since this looks like it's becoming a more detailed discussion (and since Julie sort of asked), I'll jump back in with some of my own specifics to flesh out my issue. My apologies in advance for the length.
As I mentioned before, I've spent a good deal of time thinking about what I want in a workplace. In fact, working environment is the main reason I'm considering leaving academe. I honestly enjoy the work, but I think finding the right place to do that work is a long shot. So I've broken down the various aspects of what I like about my academic work, looking for ways to transfer skills.
Research: I'm an ethnographer, so I have great interviewing skills and am good at developing relationships. In the course of my research I discovered that I'm very good at making people feel comfortable talking with me. It was always very rewarding to have a great discussion with someone who I could tell was initially very leery of talking to a "researcher". Plus I just love hearing about the variety of experiences people have in life.
Writing: I write well for academe, although I have little practice in more business-like writing. But I'm extremely good at synthesizing diverse sets of facts and ideas. Comes from being an interdisciplinary scholar. And like a good academic, I'm pretty good at saying what I think and why I think it. I've had trouble writing recently because I don't feel like I know where I'm going. But when I've had a better sense of my own direction in life, I do enjoy the process of writing. I even liked writing my dissertation -- on most days.
Teaching: I give decent lectures, but my biggest strength in teaching is my ability to lead great discussions. My favorite classes are always those when I'm able to lead the students through a tricky argument and bring together all of their comments at the end in a way that finally makes everything clear to them. I also love advising on student papers. I think I'm generally quite good at helping them see the potential in their topics. It's very rewarding to see the ways in which I've helped improve their research and arguments. And brainstorming is always fun.
One skill that I have but I do not want to advertise is being extremely good with details. I may be good at it, but I can think of nothing more boring for me than dealing with administrative minutia all day. I'd rather be a forest person who happens to be good with trees than be stuck in the trees all the time.
Other things I've learned about myself: I can be competitive if I have to, but it does not make me happy. I far prefer collaborative environments. I need to feel recognized and valued for my work. Maybe just by my immediate colleagues, maybe by a wider audience. But some source of positive feedback is important. I can work alone for some reasonable length of time, but I'm extremely relational and need a decent amount of interaction as well. I value a sense of humor in those I deal with extensively. I am, except when it comes to my own career, a good and creative problem-solver. I want to have time to continue my non-work activities and my volunteer work. And then to add a little wrinkle, my husband and I would like to start a family in the next couple of years.
So basically, I'm worried that I'm chasing a wild goose in the form of a job where I can put both my analytic and people skills together. Add to that a lack of specific content to my skills. And then there's the occasionally debilitating concern, which I suspect is somewhat common around here that my next career choice won't pan out either. And the feeling that I'm running out of time to really jump start my career pre-family. All concerns that have positive responses, I know, but they're unquestionably a part of my process.
A couple of specific comments about your previous responses. Barbara, I think you're right about my ability to enjoy a variety of different things. I've always been one of those strange people who appear to show no strong preferences on all the tests career counselors normally give. And your comment helped me see that's not necessarily bad. But I'm not sure my own idea of "career" can yet accommodate the thought of part-time jobs. Julie, your advice about networking is what I know I should be doing, but I feel so unsure of what I want that I haven't known how to go about it. A couple of years ago I went to a discussion about networking sponsored by my alumna association, and the advice was to be as specific as possible in informational interviews. Without a clear direction, I've been afraid to waste people's time. Perhaps I need to rethink that perspective.
I think I've strayed somewhat from my initial question, but hopefully sharing the rest of my process will be useful/interesting to my colleagues in indecision out there.
Best,
T.R.
Julie suggests informational interviews:
T.R.,
Just two quick follow-ups.
1) Your words: "I am, except when it comes to my own career, a good and creative problem-solver."
How can you change your vision on this?? What if this was your student, husband, sibling, colleague...how would you assist them? When I read how clearly you can define your many skills and interests, I'm curious as to how you're putting yourself 'out there' in the marketplace? My hunch is that if you dive in without knowing exactly what you want, you may find things that you can either pursue, or cross off your list.
2) DO re-think the networking perspective. As you can see by this list, just about EVERYONE loves to talk about their story!!! :) Informational interviews are just that...you're seeking info, not a job. Ask all types of questions. If from your discussion, that person happens to know someone who is hiring, great, but that is not the intent of informational interviews. One last piece of advice from an info. interview...always get two or three other contact names from every person you speak with. My hunch with your ability to interview others and make people feel comfortable, this process will be fun!
Best,
Julie
Subscriber Y.K. shares T.R.'s feelings of uncertainty:
Hi T.R.,
I've been similarly intimidated by my apparent lack of strong likes and dislikes as far as aptitude tests are concerned (according to Myers-Briggs, I have no personality). But not having a strong focus isn't always a problem when it comes to informational interviews; you'd be surprised at how willing people are to brainstorm with you, and how they also tend to let their guard down when it's obvious that you're looking for ideas and information rather than a job at their firm. I've compiled a (very) short list of things I like to do and the sort of culture I want to work in, and I've taken it to informational interviewees in industries that sound interesting, and I've asked what jobs exist that resemble my list. Not all of the jobs suggested to me have seemed like good fits, but some of them do look promising, and many of them would never occurred to me on my own.
Hope things work out for you.
Best,
Y.K.
Subscriber N.K. comments on personality tests:
Others may have different experiences, but I haven't really found aptitude tests, like Myers-Briggs, to be that helpful. Depending upon how I'm feeling, I always come out an INTJ or an ENTJ. If you look at the profile of an ENTJ, it's the profile of a corporate executive or military leader. Except that I'd like power to fix some of the dumb things I see corporations do, I can't imagine wanting to be in charge like that. Even more to the point, I had to take a job aptitude test in high school. It was supposed to tell us the profession whose participants think the most like us. I understood the number two choice of science/math teacher, but I'll never understand the first choice for me: female P.E. teacher. I'll never understand that one, not least because I always hated P.E. and I'm not female. So, even if it was valid result, it was irrelevant information. So I always reserve the right to say that the result on Myers-Briggs or whatever is interesting but not necessarily that helpful. It is true, however, that INTJs do fit the profile for software developers often.
N.K.
T.J. suggests another type of personality survey:
I too remember taking the Myers-Briggs test and wondering what I was supposed to do that new character label (all I remember is that I was "introverted"). I recently took a free online "signature strengths" survey from www.authentichappiness.org , however, and found the results A LOT more helpful.
I learned about the survey through a book from my father. He'd been taking a course at USF on positive psychology (courses are free for senior citizens). The book on the top of the syllabus was Authentic Happiness , by Martin Seligman.
The survey is in the book but also on the website. From www.authentichappiness.org , scroll down to where it says "VIA Signature Strengths Survey" and answer a few pages of easy-but-intriguing questions to get a readout of your 5 signature strengths. The key to happiness, Seligman says, is to find a career that draws on those signature strengths, or to retool your job so that you draw on those strengths more.
Trying to make yourself fit into a job that doesn't match your signature strengths is like trying to fit a square peg into a circular hole: you can jam it in, eventually, but it hurts and never quite feels right.
About 50% of our behavior is genetic, says Seligman. Behavioral studies conducted from twins separated at birth and raised in different families found the twins exhibited an amazing similarity to each other. The twins were usually quite different from other siblings raised in the same household.
We Americans tend to think that we can achieve nearly anything we want, if we just put our mind to it, set goals, and work hard enough. Living in Egypt I realized that other cultures have long accepted a "you-are-who-you-are" mentality. If we think we can do something that runs counter to who we are, the most we can probably achieve is mediocrity. But when we choose to follow the path of our signature strengths, we have a greater capacity to succeed--and be happy.
This is why I decided to get out of teaching (or will get out soon). I realized that while I love writing, I absolutely dislike classroom teaching. I would rather sit in my office thinking up essay prompts all afternoon than stand up before others and try to get them to learn something.
T.J.
Barbara responds to T'J's suggestions:
I love Seligman's work, his new book Learned Happiness, and his Learned Optimism. I use his ideas and research a lot in how to frame issues in coaching.
The genetics (nature) vs. nurture is an interesting age-old historical question. I love the notion of capitalizing on your strengths and managing your weaknesses. (Many businesses structure employee annual reviews this way.)
When I lived in Japan for 5 years, they had a similar, being who-you-are mentality. Unfortunately, this often translates to class, race, and gender discrimination.
Another story: I worked as a radio announcer in Nagasaki, Japan for 2 years. I got engaged and eventually married someone I met in Japan (and later divorced). When I got engaged, the director of the radio station told me I had to quit. I asked why. He said that it was only natural I would want to be at home with my new husband. I said (can't believe I said this) that "I'm an American and it was natural for me to work." Then, he said that if they let me stay, they would have to let the other Japanese women stay and work at the radio station when they got married. And that wouldn't be natural for them. Japanese women, at least at this time, "retired" when they get married. (It is legal to discriminate in Japan based on age and gender; age requirements are included in many ads.) OK. Lost that battle...
Take home lessons for me:
- Beware of the genetic excuse for not doing something you really want to do.
- Beware of not pushing yourself out of a box you or someone else has built and thrown you in.
- Beware of subtle and not so subtle cultural agendas disguised as "the way it is".
Barbara
Subscriber R.H. asks how often people actually find work they love:
My question for the coaches: can you generalize about what percentage of the time people really do succeed in finding work they love? How many of us are overly idealistic about what our work should mean to us? What kinds of results do you typically see in people who go through the coaching process, either on their own or with coaches?
Thanks to the listserv for providing the coaches this week.
R.H.
Julie Cohen responds to R.H.
Hi R.H.,
You raise some great questions, but I can't answer it with percentages or statistics. What I think is most important is how you (or coaching clients, or anyone on this listserv) decide how your work fits in to the big picture of your life. Some choose to have their work define their lives, some find work to be their life's passion, some find work to be a means to a paycheck which allows them to pursue whatever else they want. All of these, and more, are viable options. Making a choice that fits with your values and priorities and realities, I believe, will feel and likely be best.
If you're defining yourself as 'overly idealistic', I'm curious what would feel more comfortable to you?
Regarding results with my coaching clients, none are typical. The outcomes are based on the goals the client sets and how they choose to move ahead. The commonality that I see in most of my clients, is their willingness to do different things, look at more possibilities, take greater risks, and take better care of themselves.
Best,
Julie
Stacey responds to R.H.:
R.H.,
One of the things I see happen over and over again doing career development coaching is that clients often have a clear "awakening" that the issue isn't heir career, it's about how their lives are reflecting what's important to them. Then, the question of whether they have satisfying work becomes whether the lives they are living are satisfying.
I don't have any statistics on how many clients find meaningful work. It's a winding path for many - by that I mean when individuals decide to work with a coach, they are motivated to make changes, so all areas of life get touched in some small or rather big way - career, leisure, relationships, health, etc. I wish I could be more specific, but the journey I'm invited to take with my clients is different every time.
Barbara introduces a new topic and asks subscribers some questions:
One theme in the air seems to be that who you be is important, if not more important, than what you're doing to finding peace, life satisfaction, happiness. So, I'd like to pose some questions:
How does who you be relate to your life mission?
Does who you be provide a different perspective about what you would choose to do and how you would go about doing it?
And another question nagging me to be asked: What gifts are you bearing that need to be given?
Barbara
Subscriber G.L. posts a question on figuring out what industry to apply to once having decided upon the skills set to use:
Thanks for the discussion! I'm benefiting from the details of other people's questions so I won't be shy about presenting my own specifics.
My question is this: I know what skills I want to be using, but I don't know what industry to apply myself to, or how to present what I want to do.
Specifically, I get very excited ("get my juices flowing") about taking people's/clients/students ideas and using my language skills to communicate their message effectively to their chosen audience. I feel I'm especially skilled at understanding and intuiting someone's ideas and translating that into the English language for others to understand. I'm quick to pick up technical jargon and other sorts of insider-speak, so I feel that I could work successfully in any number of fields, (this is starting to sound like a cover letter!) and I know there's a lot of new energy in pharmaceutical writing, besides grant-writing, patent-writing... etc. etc. I really enjoy the technological nit-picky formatting/desktop/web publishing element that often accompanies the writing/editing skills as well. (I've worked as content manager for a web developer and done freelance editing/writing/desktop publishing for 3-5 years but have no specific medical, pharmaceutical, grant-writing etc. experience).
Though I have a year left of a master's program, I want to start making headway now for finding work in the spring, and though I hope I've expressed WHAT I want to do, I've had a hard time identifying WHO I want to do it for, or more significantly, who will want to hire me. I'm not feeling picky these days! and am ravenous to work in any field that can use my skills, but I need help identifying who they are and how to market myself to them.
A problem I have run into in interviews is that since there isn't a specific area of "content" that I'm focused on or trained in (say, sliding door sales or instruction manual translation), I tend to sound wishy-washy and like I don't know what I want to do. (This is reemphasized by the fact that I'm studying Creative Writing - Fiction and though it's been great for my language/communication skills, I don't want to come across as artsy-fartsy and unfocused!)
Once I identify some major fields I feel it will be easier to start narrowing down size/type/mood of companies, but right now I need help getting a start. Is there a way to stay broad (as far as "content") and still home in on a skill set?
G.L.
Julie responds to G.L.:
Hi G.L.,
Thanks for sharing your story. I'm going to take off my 'coach hat' for a moment, and put on my 'career counselor hat,' which I wore a few years ago professionally. It sounds like you're at a phase of your job search where you need to do some research and talk to people in the various industries that might utilize your skills. One place to start is your institution's Career Services Office. Most colleges/universities will have resources to assist with this process, and the internet help you locate professional organizations for people who do all of the things that you want to do.
Then request 'informational interviews' from people who you've found doing jobs that you're interested in. Sounds like you have a lot of transferable skills that could be utilized in various places. When interview time does come, it will be important that you research the organization/company that you're speaking with so you don't come off 'wishy-washy.' It's OK to be willing to work for anyone, but the person that you're interviewing with wants to know why you want to work specifically for them. I'm now taking off my career counselor hat. Hope that helps.
Julie
Barbara responds to G.L.:
G.L.,
I've had your email on my desk all week and have been pondering how to answer you.
I love your enthusiasm.
I believe other people have given you some concrete suggestions about industries. I have one about that. The magazine Fast Company has a lot of information about new successful companies. I believe they have a web site too. That is one place to start. Society for Technical Communication (STC) has a lot of info about tech and med writers. American Society for Training and Development (ASTD) for communicators, trainers, etc.
But as you narrow down your jobs search, I'd also suggest to really pay attention to how you feel when you go into the company you're interviewing at. Do you feel your enthusiasm growing or shrinking? Do you like the people? How would it be for you to use your intuition to find the job you like, not just to do the job?
Finally, one concrete way to handle the sales objection (in your last paragraph) about not having a content area is: any one learning the information would have to learn it new to translate it from the technical world to the layperson's world (for example, in technical writing). So what you are selling is your ability to learn technical material quickly and translate it.
In some domains, like medical writing at pharmaceutical companies, I've seen ads where they want you to have an MD. But in many types of writing, you can enter the field at the beginning level and then become specialized in it. But always there is the argument that no one has ever written the book, grant, patent before that they are hiring you to do. In other words, even someone with experience would have to learn about that SPECIFIC product, grant, etc. It's NEW. But what you bring to the table is your ability to research, learn the material quickly, and produce quality work quickly for the end user, customer, or layperson.
I hope this helps. And again I love your enthusiasm. If I had openings, I'd hire you on that alone!!
Barbara
Personal Fulfillment vs. Financial Stability
S.N. posts an initial question on the difficulty of doing something fulfilling while paying the bills:
This is a question for all of the participants . . .
Do you ever encounter clients who are torn between their desire to pursue their dream and their need to make a living? And if so, how do you usually counsel them? How do you help them tread this line? In my own work as a freelance writer, I encounter this dilemma constantly. I need to take certain assignments I do not love simply because they pay my bills! In fact, I would say that more than half of the work I do fits into this category. I console myself with the knowledge that it funds the other more socially oriented and personally fulfilling (and, of course, lower paying) work that I do.
In turn, my ability to work as a freelancer is funded by my husband's job, which certainly is not the fulfillment of his life's dream (executive VP in a healthcare company). He loves his colleagues and the challenges of the business, but the work doesn't feed his soul! It does provide us with a nice home, occasional dinners out, daycare for our baby, clothes, retirement savings, etc. etc. You get the picture.
I would love to hear how you help your clients grapple with this dilemma.
S.N.
Julie responds to S.N. by suggesting that she look at her core values:
Hi S.N.,
As you can see by the other comments and questions on this list, your dilemma is one that is very common. Unfortunately, being common doesn't make it any easier to deal with. There are a few directions I might go with your situation. One was what I mentioned in my response to N.K. ...what characteristics/areas are flexible with your 'dream' in order to fit with your reality? Is there a way to look at the situation on a continuum, instead of black and white (dream job and make a living as opposed to dream job vs. making a living)? You seem to be already doing this when you take assignments that you don't 'love,' but it gives you income that allows you to do other important things.
Another approach would be to look at your core values. We all have many values that make us who we are. Using a values clarification exercise, we would focus on your 10 core values...the things that need to be present in your life to make it feel 'right.' [For example, some of my core values are creativity, flexibility, fun, competence and respect] Sometimes when I do this exercise with clients, we find two conflicting core values, like financial security and adventure. Then I would ask you to prioritize your values. Although this is somewhat of an artificial exercise (some values are hard to rank), it give you a framework to help make decisions easier.
From your situation that you describe, it looks as if you and your husband have made choices that allow for meeting some of your important values. Over time, although your values usually don't change much, their order of importance may vary, so this may allow room for different choices as your life changes. One last question...what opportunity is there for your husband to 'feed his soul' outside of his work?
Regards,
Julie
Barbara builds on Julie's response:
Hi S.N.,
I really enjoyed Julie's response and agree that knowing your values is extremely important. I want to add 3 perspectives.
First, although some values stay the same, some values change over time. If you look at what you valued at 10 years old, and now, and then when you're 87, what you value may change. This is a principle that you may want to think about each week. Is what you value changing? Are your priorities changing today? This is where balancing the different parts of your life comes in.
Second, I do not necessarily think that people will earn their living doing their dream work. I hope my clients can, but people interact with a marketplace. For example, you might be able to work as a highly paid writer, only doing socially oriented work, but have to live in Singapore to do that. Is that worth it to you? So, there are trade offs. Many people I coach do some of the work they love and do a second job to help pay the bills. Their goal is to move into full time work they love, but either they have money saved to do this, or they give themselves a lot of time to make the transition (3+ years). It helps to think of this as a process rather than an end point. We do live in a culture as a whole that does not value many service-oriented socially oriented jobs (e.g. teachers) and pay enough for those services. In addition, some cultures value their families, their vacation time, their spirituality more than their careers. You might want to look at where you are getting a lot of fulfillment. From your story, it may not always be your work.
Third, have you looked into ways to have your money work for you, through some kind of passive income, such as investing, real estate, etc.? Good beginning books on this idea are Robert Kiyosaki's books: Cash Flow Quadrant, or Rich Dad, Poor Dad . From this perspective, let's assume you're accurate that in this culture at this point in time, it is difficult to make enough money for the lifestyle you and your husband want while doing socially oriented work. So, whenever you take a job that you just tolerate, maximize the income and work toward investing it, with the goal in mind to shorten the time you have to do this.
Also, it is difficult for me to coach you on this without the specifics, but I want to give you a challenge, first to get clear on what can be socially-oriented and personally fulfilling for you in your work (you probably already know this). Then, this week talk to 20 people about how they think you can get that type of work and be paid more money. (Let me explain that "a challenge" is a term in coaching. You can accept, reject, or modify the challenge. Please get back to me if you accept this challenge this week, and if not, what your counteroffer is.)
Barbara
A.H. continues question of the responsibilities of being in one's thirties and needing to earn a living while being fulfilled:
I'd also like to thank the coaches for agreeing to talk with all of us -- this is helpful!
Piggybacking on T.R.'s question on balancing the need to actually earn a living with the desire to find that thing that's really going to be fulfilling -- I also find, as a thirty-something Ph.D. in History, that there is at this point a real tug of war between wanting just to "follow my dreams" (as it were -- by which I mean being totally open to taking a new direction that might more closely match my interests) and knowing, on the other hand, that I AM thirty-something, with two children, a house, a husband, and many years invested in going down the track I'm presently on (in terms of those eight years of graduate training, in particular). So I feel that, realistically, my future is not in fact quite as "open" as some of the initial posts about coaching might suggest. The question for me becomes how to make the best of the whole constellation of career-related decisions I've made up till now and mould them (and my resultant skill set) into something that will both pay the bills, mesh better with my interests, and be reasonably fulfilling. This is tricky, since I know that if the future really were more open to me now, I'd go back to school in something really different -- like civil engineering or city and regional planning.
But at the moment, with my income as critical to our household, going back to school is really not practical. Any thoughts on how to maneuver within these very practical constraints would be helpful.
Thanks so much!!
A.H.
Julie responds to A.H.:
In practical terms, you are coming from a place of strength. You have a position with an income that you and your family need. This is a great place to explore possibilities, while still having a 'safety net.' I think it was Barbara who previously mentioned an exercise quantifying all of your skills and the potential areas that you're interested in. Getting this all in one place, where you can look at your talents, skills and interests, and then work with a friend/colleague to brainstorm options that might mix and match what is important to you. Might there be something that brings you closer to civil engineering or city/regional planning, without going back to school currently? If school is the path you want to pursue, what are more practical ways for you, besides full-time without any income? I am also curious about what it would be like if your future was more open?
Good luck on your journey,
Julie
A Subscriber's Testimonial on Leaving Academe
Hello all,
I've been following various threads on this list for over a month now but have hesitated to share my story for various reasons. Mostly because I don't really have any questions at the moment. Partly also because I feel, almost to the point of embarrassment, how different my situation appears to be from that of so many others who have written and who may be reading along silently.
I'm 38, a tenured associate professor in Latin American and comparative literature at the University of Michigan. This is a good place to work. My department is more than congenial and cooperative. And the gig, obviously, is an incredibly luxurious one in so many ways (summers off, stability, health and retirement benefits, etc.). I got my PhD in 1991 and, apart from a first year at UCLA, have been at Michigan since then. I've got two kids, 12 and 11, and an ex-wife, their mom, who lives with us.
Still and all, I've decided that this will be my last year teaching. I am giving up what so many on this list seem to be seeking, at least as their first choice (hence the sense of embarrassment). :)
For years, I got tenure in 1996 and these thoughts have been with me since then, I have struggled with my place in the academy. Though I had a very fast and relatively effortless start, and seemed well on the rising star path in my field, I have felt nagged with a sense that this isn't for me and I am not for it. It's difficult to communicate because most people think I'm insane to give this up. But this work worked for me for a period of time because it absorbed my intellect and I guess, on a human level that at the time I didn't really feel like having any other faculties absorbed.
Now, increasingly, it neither interests nor absorbs my intellect, and continues to leave other aspects of myself unattended to. At the same time, in the course of cultivating other interests and activities (creative writing, poetry, Zen Buddhist practice and study, painting, digging in the dirt), I find so many things that I love to do, love in the sense that they absorb me fully.
As I began to experience this opening over the past five or so years, doubts about this career intensified, but they were always accompanied by ultimately paralyzing fears: about finances, to be sure, but also about just what in the world I could be doing instead (given the above interests) that would make me any money.
Finally this spring, that mass of doubt just dissolved, through no particular effort or will of my own. I felt strongly, and intuitively or viscerally you might say, that I didn't need to know what I was going to do instead. I just needed to know that this work, consuming as it is, wasn't the work I am called to do. I needed to embrace, in the shape of these "extra-curricular" activities and interests, the work that I DO feel called to do (the index of that being the sense of full absorption, energy, and peace I feel while engaged in them). And finally, I needed first to accept that perhaps vocation and income generation don't always coincide and second, that following vocation, perhaps at great cost, would be the right thing and the path most likely to lead to a greater coincidence of the two. What a relief that was! A casting off of a great weight and a filling with a sense of faith and certainty -- not that I'll ever make a living doing the things that I love to do, but rather that I'll always find a way to make a living that allows me to do the things I love to do without depleting me too seriously (as academic work has done).
I'm very grateful for my run in the academy. I've learned a great deal, seen things and met people I wouldn't otherwise probably have gotten to see or meet. But I guess I know I'm just done now.
So now I think rather that I wouldn't like another "career", but rather a simpler and more modest job (I honestly don't care doing what -- working on a landscaping crew moving piles of dirt, car wash, night clerk at a small hotel somewhere on the pacific coast -- those are example, but I'm really not attached to them, it just doesn't matter) that I can do responsibly and with humility and integrity, while I explore, infused with the same values, what feels daily more and more like my actual calling.
It's been a strange trip, and I do apologize for having no question and nothing constructive to add to the discussion. But for some time I've felt that the story is enough outside the norm to warrant posting, if only to enrich the picture and perspective. I'm happy to share more, if anybody out there wants to hear it.
Peace,
C.P.
Julie responds:
C.P.,
Thank you so much for sharing your journey! As I read with rapt attention, I felt more and more peaceful.
From my perspective, no need to apologize...you shared so much...a unique perspective of your world and how you view it.
Best to you,
Julie
R.H. responds:
I think C.R. is courageous not only to relate his story, but to respond to his strong sense that he should move on to different work. I finished a PhD from an excellent university this month, but find that my relief at being finished is very much tempered with doubts about whether academic work should continue to be my path. My impression is that many of us on the list feel strongly drawn to work opportunities beyond academia, yet might struggle with various fears or hesitations about stepping away from training into which we've put a great deal of time. It seems, however, that a key to living a happy life is listening to what our authentic selves are communicating.
R.H.
C.P. continues:
Thank you R.H. I don't know about courageous. I think there has to be fear for there to be courage. And the way that this particular decision came to me (a whole other story, if anyone is interested) there wasn't really any fear, or effort involved. The worries just suddenly slipped away through some grace. But I do know what you mean.
So I was thinking about this poster I used to see when I was in middle school. It comes in a variety of versions. Imagine a butterfly, soft-focus, bright spring like colors, fluttering away from an outstretched hand in a field of flowers beneath light blue skies. Or an empty, dome-shaped bird cage, door hanging open on its windows as brightly contrasting Edward Hopper light slants through a kitchen window in the late afternoon. The cliché at the bottom of the poster reads "If you love something, set it free. If it returns to you, it's yours. If it doesn't, it never was." Okay, so as a kid, this cliché frustrated the hell out of me. It really vexed me. "How can you let it go?" I wondered, wanting reassurance that the act of letting it go would somehow guarantee its return. Childish thinking, to be sure. But then, I still have those thoughts from time to time, in various areas of my life.
The cliché seems facile, I know. That's why I evoked it ironically. But at the same time I still evoked it because as with lots of clichés, if you can scrape off the facile abuse and misappropriation (irony is a good scraper I think), you can get back to the pragmatic values from which these clichés originally sprang.
All this is a long, and very literary professor, way of saying that the key to my story, as I see it at the moment, is letting go. Of what? Well, I guess to begin, letting go of my attachment to making a living doing what I love to do. Let me just get technical here for a second. Attachment to me just means a false belief that only if "x" condition is met (e.g. If this person would love me, if I had this job, or lived in that place, if I were more virtuous) can I be happy. Now that I don't care how I make a living, I find myself with so much more energy and a much higher degree of focus for what I really love. Obviously, I have no guarantees whatsoever that this energy and focus will manifest themselves in products of a caliber likely to generate an income for me. But then, I don't care about that either. I just want to do the things I love doing, just for the sake of doing them. The rest of it will take care of itself. Or it won't. Finally, whether it does or doesn't is a question pertaining to the future and I can't see the future or do a whole lot to control it. So when I say the rest of it will take care of itself I'm stating a belief that I find useful to hold at the moment.
From my experiences neurotically spinning the question of what I want to do in my life, mentoring students, undergrads and grads alike, and listening to colleagues over the past dozen years or so, I've come to feel that finally the ability to identify what we love to do and the choice to do it regularly are the only things really in our power. We spend a lot of energy trying to get the world outside of that scope to line up for us, to become hospitable to our wishes. Sometimes it works. But when it does, I've come to suspect that we often make the mistake of concluding that this, always temporary, alignment is the result of our externally directed rearranging efforts, when in fact it is the result of myriad contingent factors beyond our control.
I'm thinking that if we spent the same level of energy in gaining clarity about what we love to do and then focus our efforts on making it real (pick up the paint brush, the phone, the shovel, the pen, the whatever and just start doing it) most of us would feel a lot happier more of the time. As for the rest of the world, we still don't control it, but it has come to seem to me that the rest of the world responds to that sort of self-sufficient, internally generated joy in kind.
Two other, colloquial and in my usual circles derided, ways of putting some of this: 1) just do it (courtesy Nike corporation) and 2) "how's that working for you?" (courtesy Dr. Phil corporation)... Dharma gates without number! :)
I don't know, of course. And I hope I don't sound pontifical. This is a new path for me and many things I now believe may wind up having to be revised in light of further experience. But this is true so far: I have experienced all of this as a tremendous lightening, sense of freedom, peace, and joy.
Peace,
C.P.
V.J. responds:
It sounds like a wonderful path. I sometimes wish more people had the courage to not only recognize that we are not what we do for a living, but also to recognize that work is just that, what we do for money. We are so much more, and some types of work take away from what we really are.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Subscriber K.T. adds support:
Thanks, C.P., for your story--full of breath and life. I flipped to your web page and found, in one of your essays, "I love the feeling of diffuse expansion, the buoyant surge of vitality and joy that comes when I stop trying to control the text, to make it say what I want it to say, and instead converse with it the way I might with a good friend, or a lover."
The "buoyant surge" sounds like what happened when you made your decision to change work. So read "text" as "life," and the same thing, I think, happens. I know that I feel that buoyancy when I stop trying to make life say what I want it to say.
Like this morning. I'm a self-employed editor and independent scholar, and just in the past two weeks I got seized by two books that want to be written. One is a rewrite of my seven-year-old dissertation, and the other a trade book on connecting with nature in more-than-ordinary ways. Writing takes me to the internal senses, a dreamier world and state of mind than ordinary consciousness, more like when I was a child and spaced out in the world of books. I lose all track of time, I feel connected to my deepest desires--and I do it just for the love of it, since who knows, in the fickle world of publishing, if any text I write will ever see the light of day?
A friend of mine says that whenever we make a decision, life has a way of asking, "Do you really mean it?" So of course, as soon as I decide to write, I get all kinds of editing offers, tempting me to earn instead of write. Yesterday a huge job was offered,--"name your price," she said--and I agonized the rest of the day over whether or not to take it.
I asked my dreams last night for guidance, and I have to chuckle at the response: I dreamed that I was part of an impromptu audience watching a small, improvised play. In the dream, not only do the audience members not know what is going to happen next, the actors don't either. And the only way you can tell actors from audience is that the former are wearing more makeup. As the dialogue progresses, it gets more and more chaotic, until finally the lights go off and the actors stream out a side door--and it takes a moment for those of us left to realize that in fact the electricity went off and the play ended early!
My dream was laughing at me for trying to make the "right" decision.
We're all just making it up as we go along; not only do we not control the "dialogue" of others, we have no control over the unforeseen events, like power outages, that affect the whole play.
So this morning I threw caution to the winds, asked for twice as much money as I figured she could pay, didn't get it, and now am free to write.
From my perspective of 46, self-employed for nearly 20 years (many of those a graduate student), I have to agree wholeheartedly that "finally the ability to identify what we love to do and the choice to do it regularly are the only things really in our power."
It brings a surge of freedom every time I stop trying to get what I want out of the world and just do the thing that is mine to do--the thing that brings deepest pleasure.
Happy improvising,
K.T.
P.D. comments on C.P.:
I for one wanted to openly weep when I read C.P's confessional. Such beauty, such wisdom. I'm left speechless. I called friends and read it aloud to them. If only we could all be so courageous, so creative. Really, bravo, C.P., bravo.
Stacey responds to C.P.:
C.P.,
Thank you. I am inspired, awed and energized.
Stacey
C.P. thanks subscribers for their support:
Hey,
I first just want to thank everyone who has said such kind and supportive things in response to my post this morning. It¹s funny, you know, from the inside, in the middle of it, it¹s really no big deal. You know today I had to borrow a beat up old Ford 150 from a friend (a former student, actually, and, now that I think of it, a landscaper!) so as to schlep some boxes and crap from the lovely rented house we soon will not be able to afford to the not quite so lovely 2 bedroom in a complex that we can afford. I still gotta do dishes, clean out the cat litter (always makes me gag!), and clean the toilets. So I rarely get the opportunity to step outside of just doing my life long enough to look at it and say, "Wow, this is kind of cool what you are doing C.P.!" So truly thanks for everyone who has given me those particular eyes with which to see this moment in time.
I also wish, like Stacey, that I had magic words for N.K. His story humbled me. I don¹t know how I¹d respond if I was caught, like him, between such a strong desire to do one thing in a particular kind of way and the apparent circumstantial impossibility of doing so in that way at the present time. In the absence of anything truly practically constructive, I¹d rather honor his struggle and his candor in sharing it with the list by keeping my mouth shut and not pretending that I have something useful to say.
C.R. asks--How does one go about putting the need to make money somewhere other than first on the list of priorities? Like C.P., I too have children (well, one), and though I'd love to be able to say with him that it doesn't really matter whether I make money or not, I can't; I can imagine reducing my duties to myself but not my responsibilities to my family.
I don¹t know if I have an answer that will be applicable to you Chris, but first I gotta just say, Chris, dude! Did I say it doesn't matter whether I make money or not? I hope not. I mean, on some very deep level on which I rarely abide for long, it really doesn¹t matter. But for the most part it certainly does make a difference to me, to my ex (who is mentally ill, uninsured, and uncoverable on my u of m health insurance), and to my kids. On the other side, if you're an academic, money obviously isn't "first on your list of priorities" either. So in a way the question struck me as posing a kind of extreme form of the problem. (please correct me if I've misunderstood). I think we are actually both operating in a substantial gray area between "it doesn¹t matter" and "it's first on the list of priorities."
So then you also wrote--More concretely: I know I'll be employed as a classicist until next summer at least. I'm not afraid to be employed as something else after that point, but it's often hard to see beyond the need to make money from then on. What's a good way to conquer that fear?--and it struck me that your answer is in the prelude to your question. You aren¹t afraid to be employed as something else after that point, you don't appear to be afraid that won¹t be employed after that point. So it strikes me that you are gonna make money from then on. So then that leaves me (after thinking aloud here in my usual annoying way--my ex kills me for this!) wondering if you might be able to articulate more precisely just what fear in relation to money you have.
Anyway, my own feeling is that I will make some money, probably a lot less than I make now (but then I¹m so terrible with money that it¹s like I don't make any now anyway--I tend to do better when I don't have money than when I do). And so yes, my kids won't get some material things that they might be used to getting. But I also figure I have higher responsibilities to them (I mean, once they are clothed, fed and sheltered adequately, emphasis on adequately) that I am definitely bailing on as an academic. For example, I think I have the responsibility to model for them a deep sense of freedom that sees freedom as going hand in hand with responsibility. That is, if I'm in a job I don¹t care for, that¹s nobody else's responsibility or choice but my own. Likewise, if I want to go and live in Newport, Oregon because no place on the planet feels as much like home, I feel a responsibility to my kids to do something other than just sit passively and hope that some giant hand will pick me up and dump me on the shore. Does that make sense? My daughter, especially, who is 12 1/2, I want her to see that she can make her life what she wants it to be. I don't want her to just listen to "The Strokes" and wish she could be a rock star one day. I want her to pick up the guitar and start jamming. How is she gonna learn to do that if her dad¹s not doing the equivalent in his own life? How did she learn to walk, talk, and eat? By watching us right? I mean obviously she has other role models and hopefully mostly good ones, but speaking from my own experience as a former child, the deepest lessons are those enacted (whether or not they were ever professed or even contradicted the professed lessons) by my parents. So that is a big part of conquering the money fear.
As before, I feel sensitive to the difficulties others are facing and I'm perhaps overly terrified that I sound facile (and so disrespectful or dismissive) and a good bit less worried that I sound incredibly naïve (but that would only affect me and it wouldn¹t be the first time I¹ve been called that). So I want to stress that I¹m making this up as I go along. I don¹t know what¹s going to happen. And I don¹t know what other people should do or what would work best for them. I just know my version of what has happened to me, and I know to keep my version of what IS happening to me right now flexible enough to allow for lots of futures to unspool themselves from it. I think of it like making anagrams. You have to be able to imagine those letters in radically different positions, to do that, you really have to shake loose the fixed and given way in which you received them. And then, the really good anagrammists aren't just happy to have come up with a new arrangement that makes sense. They want one that makes sense and somehow relates to or comments on the first thing they got. That means they are relentlessly, imaginatively experimental. Does this work? Is it good enough? Could it possibly be better? Do I have the energy, the resources, the courage to try to make it better (despite having no guarantee whatsoever that it won¹t be worse)?
I don¹t know if this helps at all, C.R. I'm happy to try to understand better just what you are worried about and to see if I can help. Sometimes it helps me just to really lucidly understand what I am really worried about.
Peace everybody,
C.P.
C.P. responds to K.T.:
Hi K.T.,
Thanks for your kind words and your thoughtful reply to my post. Thanks also for taking the time to go to the web page and actually read, and read carefully and intelligently at that. Nice passage you found. Right on the mark.
And I just LOVE what you decided to do about the job offer. Sweet! Can't lose when you take that kind of position. It's like buying used cars (which, actually, I suck at): people say you have to be willing to walk away, which is also just another way of saying that "nothing left to lose is just another word for freedom". I also love that you asked your dreams for guidance. That's damn smart. In addition to my daily Zen practice, I also do a daily I Ching reading and a daily Tarot card. I get a lot of wisdom out of my relationship with those two sources of images. I know that ultimately all that is happening is that they are providing me with images that, in the right frame of mind, I can use to tap into things in my mind that the more rational, controlling and fearful side doesn't necessarily want to avail itself of. The dream thing sounds like a wonderful, wonderful version of that. I'm gonna try it tonight. So thanks so much.
Take good care...good luck with your books...
Peace,
C.P.
C.R. responds to C.P.:
Dear WRK4US folks,
Like others of you who have already written in, I too love what C.P. says about his grace-given epiphany and his ability to let go in such rewarding ways. As a college professor who may not be one for much longer (my wife and I don't plan to move, she's on the tenure track, I'm not, classics jobs are scarce in the area, much else in our lives is wonderful) I'd really love to feel what C.P. feels, and on most days I can reassure myself that at some point I will.
But -- and here's the question for our weekly leaders and for C.P. -- how does one go about putting the need to make money somewhere other than first on the list of priorities? Like C.P., I too have children (well, one), and though I'd love to be able to say with him that it doesn't really matter whether I make money or not, I can't; I can imagine reducing my duties to myself but not my responsibilities to my family.
More concretely: I know I'll be employed as a classicist until next summer at least. I'm not afraid to be employed as something else after that point, but it's often hard to see beyond the need to make money from then on. What's a good way to conquer that fear?
(By the way, N.K., Minnesota is lovely!)
C.R.
Julie asks C.R. to elaborate:
Hi C.R.,
Can you talk more about your fear?
I'm curious about what opportunities you can discover or create between now and next summer?
It is completely OK to need and want to make money. One's relationship with money is very unique, as we've seen by the various perspectives shared this week. I would encourage you to get comfortable with where money fits in with your plans and vision, and us that as one of the many things that will help you make decisions about what is next for you.
Julie
How to Break Into a Desired Field
Subscriber N.K. posts an initial question on how to become employed in chosen industry:
To our guest speakers, thanks for offering your time. Now my big question. I have been around the block a few times and I know exactly what I want to do. In fact, the last several years have been in jobs I didn't want to do (in software and if I never write another piece of code or learn one more API or read one more article about some new programming approach, I'll die happy) in order to get ready for what I really want to do. Now I'm "ready," but unable to get employed in what I want, what would you tell me? What do you say to clients who get a clear idea of what they want, a very specific idea, but try as they may, it just doesn't happen? Then what? Thanks.
N.K.
Julie responds to N.K's with some questions:
Hi N.K.,
A pleasure to offer my time! And you do ask a BIG question. So, what do you want to do? I'm glad you know exactly. Having your ideal is fantastic. As I mentioned in my response to T.R., going from ideal to reality is often challenging. But, the more defined you have your ideal, the closer you can get to it, so you're off to a great start. I'm curious as to what is preventing you from getting employed in what your really want? Assuming that this ideal scenario is a '10' on a scale of 1 to 10, what would a '9' look like? Of all of the characteristics of the ideal, are there any that you could be flexible with which would get you closer to employment that may be an '8' or a '9' on your ideal scale?
So to answer your 'what would I say' question...I would ask the following questions and see where we would go:
- What is it that you really want to do?
- What is preventing you to get employed doing it?
- What possibilities are there for getting around these roadblocks?
- If you can't get the exact job that you want, what is acceptable in the short-term?
From these answers, action steps are likely to develop, as well as greater clarification of where you might continue looking.
If it's OK with Paula for list protocol, I'd be happy to hear more details of situations. It makes it easier to address, instead of dealing in generalities. If things are too specific for the list, I'm happy to continue discussions off-list.
Looking forward to your reply,
Julie
Barbara builds on Julie's responses to N.K.:
Hi N.K.,
I don't know your specifics, which feels constraining for me, but here it goes. It sounds like such a gift to know yourself so well. You also sound very successful and that you have a lot of skills. My thoughts are around Julie's second and third questions about your roadblocks.
Since I don't know what field you're planning on entering, general strategies that have worked with some of my clients to help them get employed are:
- Network with people in the field doing the work you want to do. Have coffee with them, go to their society meetings, read their professional publications, talk with everyone as if you are in the field already.
Lastly, if you must, volunteer in the field.
- Take a hard look at your resume, your job interviewing skills, your follow up with job leads, and your closure rate on getting job offers (you can call companies that rejected you and ask them why), how you dress for interviews, how well you research potential places you want to work. Have some professional look over your skills in this area and be ready for feedback and to make changes.
- Are their any self-imposed constraints you're putting on yourself getting a job, such as if you want to raise llamas but live in NYC, it may be difficult.
Are you willing to move? Are you willing to learn a missing skill that would land you the job, put you ahead of other candidates? Ask friends you trust and respect if they have any suggestions.
- Many of my clients use affirmations and visualizations. They write their specific goal, i.e. what it is and by when they will achieve it, on a note card and review their affirmation each day; for 5 minutes a day, they imagine themselves already having achieved their goal. (See Napoleon Hill -
Think and Grow Rich.) Keep your mind focused on what you want.
If you've already done all that and even if you haven't, use your intuition, say prayers, ask your higher power what your next step is.
Barbara
N.K. gives a detailed history:
Thanks Julie and Barbara for your comments. Okay, here's my story, for what it's worth it's a bit long, so you may want a latte first). I want to teach biblical studies to adult learners. I want to teach Greek and maybe Hebrew. Big school or small school is immaterial (as long as it's a real college that is accredited). I had this aspiration (and if I may borrow on Santiago's wording, perhaps a sense of this being what I'm called to do) way back in my junior year of high school (around Early Bronze II). This wasn't just a "research interest" i bumped into in college. I was thinking about it, and then taking a Greek course in my church at 17 really hooked me. I got a B.A. in Religion from the kind of place I envision teaching, a Christian liberal arts college. I was counseled that if I might be teaching people who would be pastors and the like that I should get a M.Div., not am M.A. (the difference being that an M.Div. has essentially a third year of course work, focused on church-related functions such as preaching and counseling, and at least a year of field work while taking classes, and unlike some M.A. programs, no thesis). So far, so good. Then life took a wrong turn. I didn't get into the Ph.D. program I was hoping for (probably didn't go to the right schools to get into a power school for Ph.D. program). I got accepted into the University of Aberdeen, which was great, but I couldn't find a way to pay for schooling in Scotland.
Faced with the inability to get a Ph.D. in New Testament when I wanted to, and the lack of job possibilities with just a M.Div. (way too many Ph.D.s to be taken seriously with just a M.Div. except in quasi-schools I wouldn't want to be in), I switched gears. I made an assumption (faulty in hindsight) that being good at languages (Greek in particular), I should be good at programming languages. I went off and got two more degrees, both in computer information science, and got a programming job. I spent thirteen years as a programmer at various places, mostly in the San Francisco Bay area.
After thirteen years as a programmer, I switched to technical training and taught computer programming for Sun Microsystems, until the third layoff that affected my area (November, 2002). All told, I have 17.5 years of experience in the IT field. I didn't want to have that many years but I do. A couple of months ago, I finally completed my Ph.D. in New Testament. I'm now ready, willing and able to do what I've aimed at for about thirty years.
Can I do what I want? No. Why? Well, first, there's the job market. I'm one of many people who have been out of work in Silicon Valley for many months, unable to find work in the field I've been in for many years. Yet, jobs in IT are plentiful compared to teaching jobs in biblical studies. Were that not bad enough, I'm too old. I'm in my late forties. Friends and acquaintances in the same age bracket who are doing what I want to do are already established. They have tenure.
They've written several books. They always get chosen to write the articles for the next encyclopedia or dictionary in my field. I just freshly completed my Ph.D. last month, and have two articles published. I can't storm that castle. Those who are in about the same boat that I am are about twenty years younger. I have not the slightest doubt that, given multiple candidates, no one my age would be chosen when someone younger is available, all else being equal. I suppose I could make my C.V. like my resume and remove the dates of my degrees, but even then, if I get an interview, it's clear I'm not twenty-something. Case in point: I met someone in grad school. We both started the same time, both had the same advisor, both lost the same advisor when he left the school and both ended up in external Ph.D. programs at British universities. Unlike me, he worked on his degree full-time and finished a year or so before me. He's a lot younger too, and in spite of the fact that he had not published an article, and does not have almost five years of experience teaching adult learners (as I do in a corporate setting) and has not published an 800+ page book (as I have, though it's on Java programming), he got hired for a great teaching job, whereas I haven't even been able to make the interview list. It's sad that academia discounts completely writing, researching and teaching in a non-academic environment this way, but that's the way it is. So I chalk this up in part to his age (though I'm sure that's not the only factor, and I'm happy for him). Still, I can't undo my age.
I should hasten to add that I'm not looking for a research institution. I want to actually teach, to sit in my office and mentor students, as my Old Testament prof did with me in college, as opposed to a seminary prof I had who is well-published, but treated student appointments like they were nuisances as best. There aren't many alternatives here. I can't teach computers because my degree is only a B.S., but I don't want to do that anyway (I did teach a few semesters in UC Berkeley Extension but that doesn't seem to count either since it was programming). I only want to teach biblical studies and languages.
I currently have an adjunct job doing this in distance learning but that's not a career (McDonalds pays a whole lot better). I'm pretty much convinced from the total lack of interviews, let alone offers, to teach, that this is just not going to happen. What do I do instead? I'm still trying to find another IT job (at this pint, any IT job), but even if I can, that's not what I want to do. It's not even close. It's mentally stimulating and it pays the bills, but for me, that's about all I can say for it. I'm pretty burned out on it too.
This mailing list got me thinking about writing jobs, but so far I haven't found any of those, not that corporate communication would be that satisfying but it would be a break from software. I've thought about becoming an editor instead, working for a book company whose titles I would normally buy (primarily biblical studies), like Eerdmans or Zondervan. They don't have any openings and the class I'm taking on copyediting won't help, because they apparently don't use freelance copyeditors. Even being an editor, however, would be way far away from what I want to do. I can, of course, find volunteer ways to do something sort of like what I want to do, but that's still not the same.
As for constraints, I've got two. I only want to teach at a real college or university. Also, I'm a native southern Californian. While I'm willing to relocate, I haven't applied for positions I've seen in Minnesota, North Dakota or the central plains of Canada. I just don't think I could handle that, let alone my wife and three kids. None of us but my wife has ever lived in snow country, and she has no fond memories of living in Wyoming briefly as a child. I had to teach a one-week class for Sun Microsystems in Troy, NY, a couple of years ago. I have never been so cold in my whole life. I can't think of any place to even go in California to get -35 Fahrenheit. I'm just not going there. I might compromise some on this, because the major schools I'd want to teach at are unfortunately concentrated in Illinois and adjoining states, but still....
Sorry for the length of this, but in fact I edited it to be shorter than it was.
N.K.
Subscriber R.R. asks N.K. a question:
Are there jobs like that in churches? Lots of ordinary people want to read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek, so I'd wonder if any churches would hire people to teach classes (and actually pay enough). Would it be possible to teach a class in a church and pitch it at a college level that would make for satisfying teaching?
Just a couple of thoughts.
- R.R.
A.Z. responds to N.K.'s interest in editing:
Hello, N.K.,
I work as a full-time freelance editor, primarily for books in the social sciences. I can verify that many publishers don't use freelance editors; when I started out as a freelancer, I made dozens of inquiries, and even most of the major publishers had a policy of doing all editing in-house.
Editing, as you said, also appears to be off your chosen path.
I suggest identifying the publications that you read or would be interested in, then seeing what ideas you have for articles that fit in the content areas published in those magazines. In many cases, it's far easier to become a freelance writer than a freelance editor, and writing is closer to the teaching that you wish to do. When you write to one of the publications you've selected as interesting to you (if you're interested in it, there's a greater chance that it will be interested in you), provide a summary of one page or less of an idea for an article, including the sources you would use and why you are particularly suited to write the article. It's not a bad idea to include the projected length, keeping in mind the lengths of articles you've seen in the publication. If you have some publications, use them to establish your credibility as a writer.
Writing is a great outlet for the urge to teach and inform, and as you build a reputation as an expert in a particular field, your writing becomes more marketable, and you may even find that publications will contact you to write for them. (It's not very common, but it does happen.) If nothing else, each publication builds your resume and shows that someone is taking your writing seriously. You might find that you've written several articles on a given topic, and that that topic could be expanded into a book; the book, in turn, makes you more credible in the teaching market. Thus, the writing could serve as an end in itself or as an aid to getting a teaching position.
I can attest that editing is a difficult job suited to few people, with rewards of a peculiar variety. It appeals more to obsessive types than to creative types. Enter at your own risk!
A.Z.
Stacey responds to N.K.:
Thanks for providing more detail. I wish I could find some magic words that would make it all so much clearer for you, but my sense is that you're in the middle of processing what's next for you - and to complete that, you need time, space and support.
I'd like to recommend an article that you might find an interesting read. It's How to Stay Stuck in the Wrong Career by Herminia Ibarra. It was published in Harvard Business Review, December 2002 (Vol. 80, Issue 12). It gives a thoughtful perspective on this very subject.
Thanks for being so candid.
Stacey
U.M. seconds N.K.:
You can take N.K.'s posting, and change just a few details, such as locations-- and one major one-- the subject area-- substitute music history for biblical studies-- and you will pretty much have my story. I don't have any trouble knowing what I want to do. I still want what I've always wanted, to be a musicologist, to be engaged with music and communicating it to dedicated adult learners. I haven't wanted to stop being that, although I've been unable to get a job doing that since my Ph.D. in 1997; and my need to support myself in spite of my inability to get a job doing that since my Ph.D., hasn't gone away.
Every step I take away from that into a more pragmatic world--the equivalent, I guess, of N.K.'s IT adventures-- takes me further from a world I really want to be in, but would not let me in for six years. Before I got my Ph.D., as a student, I was still part of it. Afterwards, it was like the door had been slammed on me and I could not get back in. Not student, not faculty, I was nobody, neither flesh nor fowl.
And the greatest frustration of all was hearing my mentors and other professionals in my field repeatedly tell me that I was "doing everything right." I burned out on the job chase, the publication clock, before I ever got hired. I couldn't keep hitting my head against a brick wall anymore. My health collapsed, and I gave in to a long, dark depression that I'm not entirely out of, I'm afraid.
Now I am slowly coming to the conclusion that in order to move on in any direction, I will have to go back to school, and get yet another degree, which only adds to my sense of bitterness and waste about my doctorate-- my sense that the world is telling me that it is really good for nothing.
And when/if I go back for that retraining, in a more pragmatic field-- one in which I can get a job with health benefits-- I'm afraid I will be longing to be back in those gloriously impractical library stacks with art, music, literature, all those things that I excelled at, and in which I felt at home and true to myself, but in which I have not been able to be employed since I got that damn Ph.D.
Barbara responds to U.M.'s website:
U.M.
I went to your web site and enjoyed it tremendously. I love your idea of the Independent Scholar's Initiative. I wonder where you are with that idea? I also followed a lot of your links and found job postings, links to societies, etc. It was great. I admire your call for statistics on Ph.D. candidates so that possible graduate students can go into graduate school with their eyes open. Thank you for your service. It looks like it took a lot of work to pull it all together.
Barbara
Barbara asks N.K. some leading questions:
Dear N.K.,
Congratulations on achieving your goal of getting your Ph.D.!!! What I know about you from your story below is that you're very determined, dedicated, committed, and flexible in altering your plans when you needed to in order to reach your goals. And I know you love your family. Also, congratulations on your two published articles!! What are they about?
What do you love about the New Testament? What do you love about teaching adults? What do you enjoy about languages?
When you had your inspiration in Junior High school, what was it like? What were you doing at the time? What was the inspiration like? A vision? A feeling? With people? Without people? Where was/is that knowing in your body?
What would it be like for you to journal about these questions?
Barbara
Hadass Sheffer gives N.K. suggestions on combining present work with dream work:
N.K.,
Have you thought of combining your IT skills with your passion for teaching the Bible/Hebrew/Greek? Here are a couple of examples:
1. Franklin Electronic Publishers make electronic versions of the Bible and Koran for e-book readers and for their own proprietary handheld platform. Some versions are multi-lingual (Arabic-English, Hebrew-English, etc.) while others are English-only. The products are designed for people who want to be able to search for specific passages, but also for teachers and students, so part of the design relies on people with content and pedagogical expertise. Your familiarity with IT, programming, Java, etc. would be a huge plus. There are probably other companies that do this as well, I mention Franklin only because I know them.
2. Educational and philanthropic organizations are exploring technical approaches to archiving and providing access to scholarly resources, developing digital libraries, etc. Unfortunately, I can't locate the source right now, but I've heard of a couple of projects at private foundations that have to do with the Bible. The West Semitic Research Project, another example, is based at USC.
Best,
Hadass
Subscriber S.N. advises N.K. and continues the strain:
Hi all,
Two thoughts, which I'll try to keep brief:
1. N.K.: you said one of your constraints was that you wanted to teach at a "real" college; you also express interest in teaching adult learners (which I take to mean other than the traditional, full-time, 18-22-year-old college student); and certainly, teaching Sunday School isn't the same thing. But I wonder if there might not be some sort of opportunity for you working at the governance level of one or more of the Christian denominations, doing something with curricular design/development for adult studies taught through churches? Having grown up in the Presbyterian Church, I can attest to the fact that many congregations out there have really amazing, intellectually challenging, advanced adult education programs (ranging from individual classes to ongoing series, on a truly wide range of topics that includes Bible studies, ethics, and even languages). While you may not find what you're looking for by teaching some of those classes at the individual congregation level, I'm sure that the Presbyterian USA national organization (synod? Not sure what they call it at the national level) has positions for people who design/manage/consult/coordinate such education at the broad systematic level, for distribution/dissemination to various individual congregations. I'm sure other denominations have the same thing. It might be that there is some opportunity for you there that would let you teach adults in areas you love while still earning a salary (albeit probably not a huge one!).
2. In general: I'm finding all the talk about how to find the balance between following dreams, creative interests, social fulfillment, and economic responsibilities fascinating. As someone who has engaged in that kind of speculation at more than one crossroads, I would like to throw a thought/caution/question into the midst: I think it's important to be able to distinguish between creative or other interests that could viably become career paths, versus those that should remain hobbies. For example, I love to cook, plan menus, entertain, etc. Many people have told me I should turn that love into a career. However, I know very well that if cooking on that scale were something I HAD to do every day, and if I had to let other people's tastes (or lack thereof!) dictate what and when I cooked, I would rapidly come to hate it. Similarly, my mother has a real flair for design, and when she was trying to start a career after 20 years as a homemaker, I suggested she take a course in interior design. She was self-aware enough to know that while she loved decorating HER house and indulging HER tastes, she would never have the patience or tact to deal with clients whose design visions clashed with her own sense of style. Some hobbies/interests are meant to remain just that, because you do them for the love of it and they serve as a rejuvenator outside the parameters of work, schedules, economic necessity, etc.
I guess there are two points to my ramblings: one, it is easy to idealize a potential career path before you take it, and thus easy to be disappointed or disillusioned when you pursue something you love, only to find out that you still have to deal with the same realities you'd have to face in any field-- it's important to realize that even your dream job is going to have its warts, downsides, and bad days (or weeks). Two, when considering a significant change in your career path, and considering basing your career on a talent/interest/hobby that has never been a part of your work life, it's important to evaluate what else may be involved beyond the core interest, and to determine whether these are also things you can/want to deal with in your work; for example, I love design, but I don't think I'd be well suited or happy with the customer service/sales aspect of a career as an interior designer.
None of this is to say that you shouldn't follow such a path; only that you will have a better chance of succeeding and being happy at it if you go in with realistic expectations instead of expecting the new path to "fix" all the problems that were making you unhappy in your old path.
S.N.
A.S. agrees with S.N. in that changing careers is not always the answer:
Here! Here! I had just finished typing a similar message when this one appeared. I would like to add too, that you need to be very careful that you are "fixing" the correct aspect of your life. I've known many people over 40 who left a job when what they needed to do was re-assess their marriage or financial commitments, or BOTH. Take great care that you are not pursuing a dream only to create a nightmare elsewhere. And beware also, that beyond a certain age, opportunities and time to build careers is quite reduced. We all love to celebrate the mythic and epic potentiality of our lives in a romantic fashion, but the reality is that the workplace often stamps a "best before" date on us. It takes years to establish yourself, and few are given the gift of instant success at age 50, though they are the stories we love to tell...
So, even if your mother had gotten her decorator's diploma, she'd have had difficulty building a business and competing against people her age who had been at it since age 22. Yet she would have the financial and family responsibilities of someone at mid life. I think there's a rhythm and pace to life that should be considered.
A.S.
N.K. thanks S.N. for comments:
HI S.N. Thanks for your suggestion.
Actually by adult learners I just meant college students versus younger. I am accustomed to thinking of them as adult learners rather than college students because I've been a technical trainer for five years with adult learners who already have degrees and I was teaching them outside a college environment. I really have in mind college students.
Thanks.
N.K.
B.D. asks about how to implement the decision for change:
Thanks again for offering your time and expertise, and congratulations on making your passions your work.
My question continues an idea raised earlier by listers, namely what to do in that second phase when you feel like you've identified that you want a change and explored some possible directions, but are having trouble getting things executed. After about a 5-year process, during which I realized I didn't want to be a professor, finished my doctorate as a matter of principle, and discovered a discipline in business to which I could apply my skills and experiences, I find myself at a crossroads. The job I took after my degree has been very rewarding: I've gained confidence and business/corporate experience, and I'm just now completing a yearlong transfer. However, I know that I don't want to stay in this field forever, and in fact have used this year to do a lot of internal and external exploration and to steel myself for a change. But as the clock winds down I worry about both inertia and missed opportunities.
Missed opportunities: The end of the transfer seems like a perfect time to 'transfer out' --logistically, emotionally and professionally-- but I worry that I'd short-circuit something wonderful that would reveal itself if I stayed on longer. I've seen it happen twice already, once negative and once positive: 1) when I left the city in which I received my master's only to regret it; and 2) when I decided to stay on in my current position beyond the year I'd first promised myself, and thus was able to have several great experiences I didn't anticipate. In fact, I was preparing to send in my notice when the opportunity for this transfer came along. Because I don't want to miss an opportunity, part of me worries that I should spend more energy campaigning to make my current job more of my dream job--though I think my company has only so much flexibility there. Meanwhile, I've never been able to execute the "day job to support the dream work" to my satisfaction--I let the day job creep in to consume all my energy--so I think that's less of an option.
And you can probably guess the inertia part: in many ways it's just easier to stick with what you know and maneuver in that space, rather than having to start over. (Especially when, as another poster said, the field you dream of is highly competitive and rarely lucrative in the early days. And when, frankly, it's scary.) In light of that, I've contemplated forcing myself to move by doing wacky things like quitting work for 6 months and living with relatives, or taking a telemarketing or other passion-less 9-to-5 job, to make myself uncomfortable and thereby dig down to the bare bones of what I'm going to do.
In sum, I know I need to make a move, but I'm hesitating. What practical tips would you have to help a person decide when and how to cut bait? In case these matters help you answer: I am blessed to have family that can in fact take me in temporarily (though pride and disposition make that unappealing to me), I have no dependents or partner to consider, I am debt free with a limited savings, I am in my mid-30s. Thanks for your thoughts.
--B.D.
Paula Foster, list manager, responds to B.D. about the benefits of staying in a job:
B.D., I am not a career counselor, just a list manager, but I will say from my own recent personal experience that one downside of changing jobs or careers, for me, has been that my resume lacks evidence of sustained long-term commitment (to a position, to a field, or to an organization). I don't look like a total flake (five years as an assistant director in the film business followed by seven years as an English Composition instructor is actually not bad), but now that I am entering my third career (I just got a GREAT job as a grantwriter in a nonprofit organization!!), my intention is to stay with this position for as long as reasonably possible, five or seven years if need be, learning and growing and showing sustained commitment.
I almost hesitate to advise you to stay where you are, because this list is all about CHANGING careers, so the last thing I would ever want to suggest to my subscribers is that we're all better off sticking it out in our current situation. Hardly!! BUT--having floundered around for a while after grad school, and having finally identified my new career (nonprofit development), the best strategy for ME now is to stick with it. You said you once reaped good benefits from sticking around longer than you had planned to--perhaps the same would be true here, in your current situation. On the other hand, maybe your resume already shows plenty of sustained commitment, in which case you can better afford to jump around. Your call of course.
Paula Foster
B.D. responds to Paula's comments:
Thanks for your comments, Paula. In fact the strongest evidence of commitment on my resume is my graduate work, so... Definitely food for thought.
Julie responds to B.D. and Paula on commitment:
Paula and B.D.,
I was just about to reply to B.D.'s original post, but wanted to comment on Paula's perspective. I, once again, am going to put on my career counselor hat as well as my HR hat. Over the past 10 years, the way employers view resumes and number of jobs/careers has changed significantly. In my parents' generation (I'm in my mid-thirties), it was usually assumed that one found a job/career and stayed with it for the long haul, went up the ladder, or maybe made one professional change during the working years. This, in most situations, is no longer the case. I don't have a resource for you, but the statistics we used to quote when I was a Career Counselor at Penn in the mid-90s was that most people entering the job market will likely have at least 7 jobs/careers during their working life. {I'm on my 5th!} Long-term commitment is not necessarily valued as it was, by employers and employees. Generation X and Generation Y have changed the way they look at work, and a lot of organizations have changed with them. When I worked in Human Resources (in the corporate world), we would often have fantastic candidates at age 30 who had worked for 3 or 4 different companies. What we looked for was increasing skill level, or broadening experience; high integrity and ethics, commitment to doing really good work regardless of who they worked for. Also, it's important that you can explain the path that you've taken and the choices that you made. Of course, as I say this, there are organizations and situations where commitment will be measured by years at one job/org/field, but just want to put it out there that this is no longer the norm.
Julie
Julie responds again to B.D. on how to get past worrying:
Hi B.D.,
First off, I want to acknowledge your great level of self-awareness, as well as your openness to looking at your current situation, as well as what may lie ahead.
Now, I'm going to use a bunch of your own words:
"I know I need to make a move, but I'm hesitating." From your description, it seems that worries ("worry that I'd short-circuit something wonderful that would reveal itself if I stayed on longer" and "worries that I should spend more energy campaigning to make my current job more of my dream job") are playing a big part in your hesitation.
Here's an exercise to play with. First off, imagine that you've made a decision, either to stay or to go. Spend some time imagining that the decision is made, not what the decision is. How does that feel?
Then, take one whole day and pretend that you've decided to stay. You've made a commitment to make your current job more in to your dream job. How does it feel to go to work, knowing that you're not leaving? Finally, take the next whole day, and live like you've decided to leave.
Pretend that you've given notice and you're moving on. Again, how did that feel?
Although this may seem a bit artificial, 'trying on' decisions without actually making them might help you decide what is really right for you without the risk.
I have no doubt that you are creative, resourceful and can make the best of whatever decision you make. I would love for the decision to feel right, without the worry, focusing on what lies ahead as opposed to what you might miss. If you decide to play with this exercise, I'd love to hear what you come up with.
Best,
Julie
Subscriber L.E. focuses in on networking:
Thanks for the great discussion!
I just came across this interesting article. Someone had mentioned how hard it is to get grad students to network, and so many of the panelists have mentioned the importance of networking. Developing a personal social network as part of one's social and intellectual capital seems to be a crucial part of switching from academic to nonacademic career tracks.
http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue5_5/nardi/
Here's the first paragraph:
The old adage, "It's not what you know, but who you know," could, paradoxically, be the motto for the Information Age. We discuss the emergence of personal social networks as the main form of social organization in the workplace. A dazzling new battery of communication technologies enables workers to connect to diverse, far-flung social networks. The seemingly sudden appearance of people in restaurants talking into their cell phones, the smash success of the Palm products, the increasing use of instant messaging at the office, the chirp of pagers in meetings - all herald the intense moment-by-moment communication activity of workers plugging into their social networks. Castells described the network society in the large (Castells, 1996). We report our ethnographic study of the ways people wield their personal social networks to get things done at work. Our investigation provides a worm's eye view of the network society.
L.E.
A.S. continues the debate:
Thank you very much for this honest observation of the humanities. We are told to use our "network" for employment opportunities after we have just spent 7 years in isolation reading through aged texts. What network? We are told repeatedly of the transcendent calling to teach and yet find few teaching positions. At the end we are encouraged to return to college for practical training in computers, publishing, technical writing, or some other employable skill set. One wonders why these courses are not incorporated through practicum or internship programs as used by the sciences.
Further exacerbating the problem of depression among the "underemployed" is the fact that most humanities faculties are exceptionally dismal role models for career development. Most have minimal (if any) interpersonal skills and are so poor at networking that their graduate students are dumped into the sea of other underemployed PhD's with "no job, no prospects, no money, and no hope." I have often indicated that on the clinical side of the social sciences, we were required to do multiple fieldwork, practicum, and internship experiences. While many clinical/counseling types still pine for teaching positions, at least they have numerous contacts in the clinical world. I paused while writing this to hatch together a list of fieldwork supervisors and came up with 11! I had direct contact with senior clinical staff at these sites that numbered in excess of 21...many were directors and supervisors by the time I graduated.
Hadass Sheffer asks about the necessity of returning to school:
his week's discussion is one of the most invigorating and inspiring we've had, I think, and it's giving me much fodder for the Humanities at Work and The Responsive PhD programs that host WRK4US...
My question is about returning to school as part of a career change.
The thought of someone who has already invested five or eight or ten years in getting a PhD now spending another two or three years back in school strikes me as a potential waste of time. And I speak from experience--I went back and got an MBA (at night, while working fulltime, with a vision of what I wanted to do afterwards.) It took me 3 grueling years of long, tiring days, not seeing much of my family and having no time for myself.
During my studies, I also made a career change that was unrelated to my MBA plan (oh, the importance of keeping an open mind even when you think you've made the right decision.) However, I now realize that most of the skills the MBA had to offer, I could have developed just as effectively by working in the area I wanted to move into. In fact, my MBA studies didn't really come into play much in my career change.
Hearing the stories of PhDs I have met through my programs at work, I have come to believe that the ability to translate talents, passions, past experience, and the skills gained through doctoral training into a "package" that appeals to an employer is perhaps more important than a professional degree. There are exceptions, of course, in cases of careers such as law and library science, but in general - when would you, as coaches, recommend going back to school?
Hadass Sheffer
Subscruber E.J. responds:
I'd like to piggy-back off of Hadass's question. I've spent several years pursuing my doctorate but felt very depressed, disillusioned, skill-less and uncertain about my future. So I took a leave of absence this past spring and summer semesters. Unfortunately I didn't run off to pursue my dreams during the break. Instead, since I was strapped for cash, I took a job with a professor in my department. I won't go into the details of my current employment. Let's just say that I'm beginning to wonder if a PhD is influential in some non-academic jobs. I'm even considering finishing my doctorate but shaping my research to allow my to learn more about my targeted career. See, I'm in anthropology and "corporate anthropology" or "organizational anthropology" is gaining some respect now. Am I being an idealistic dreamer, thinking that I can go back to school, research my targeted career field from an objective, scholarly perspective and later, after I graduate, have people in this field request my consulting services and expertise?
-E.J.
Stacey responds:
Hi Hadass,
Great question. It's hard to generalize an answer for all the obvious reasons. So let me toss something out as an observation. Part of what makes coaching so powerful is the challenge to the client to get him/her to look at different options - the old "thinking outside the box" idea. I'm curious about whether going back to school is the only way to transition? Is it possible to create or find another way? How have others done it? What would it be like to design an unconventional transition plan? I've seen clients get outrageously creative and resourceful when they start looking in the corners for options.
-Stacey
Barbara responds to E.J.:
A movement occurring among coaches is corporate story telling. Some executive coaches go in and help companies develop consistent stories and cultural images for their employees, customers, etc. Have you considered taking all you know now and doing information interviews regarding organizational development, corporate anthropology, etc. and discovering how other people in the field use their backgrounds? ASTD (American Society for Training and Development) has a sub group on organizational development. I've met people there with HR, org dev, anthropology, and psychology backgrounds. Frankly, too, I've met a lot of former anthropologists in Marketing! Go figure.
But I'd like to challenge you to use your research skills in the next 3 months to research the field, and get out interviewing people and going to various professional society meetings, plan your own career path, and answer your own question about whether to complete doctorate in the way you outlined.
Let us know what you discovered.
Barbara
P.S. A book you might enjoy is Corporate Cultures by Deals and Kennedy.
An interesting executive coach web site: www.first-voice.com
A.H. responds to Stacey's questions on this topic:
My thoughts on this:
Although I have, as I noted, considered going back to school and starting completely afresh in a new direction, I ultimately concluded (at least for the next few years) that this was neither practical nor necessary for me. One thing you see if you start talking to people is that there are an awful lot of people out there doing very interesting, fun, and fulfilling work that is outside the frame of what they specifically trained for. I think in some ways it helps to get beyond thinking that they key to everything is a degree in that thing. Lives evolve, and there are many ways to learn as you go along. One thing that we Ph.D.s must indeed be good at is just that -- learning! And so one thing that has helped me is to think of how I can mobilize that learning ability to take myself in new directions without having necessarily to go back through school again. This is a somewhat slow process that may not lend itself well to abrupt change, and obviously this does work better if you are evolving into something somewhat related to what you've been doing and not requiring certain licensure, etc. (no one is just going to "evolve into" being a doctor or, for that matter, a civil engineer), but still . . . it's been a useful insight to me.
Also, on another note, I think there are lots of different sources of fulfillment and different stages that we are all at in the process. For me, after getting a History Ph.D. and then spending five years (while adjuncting and then being at home with my young children) wondering if ANYONE would ever hire me to do ANYTHING, simply landing a (good, enjoyable, and challenging) administrative position in a happy work environment at a good university has been an incredible boost. I love being able to support my family in this way -- every time my children's doctor's appointments are charged to my employer-financed insurance I am simply thrilled! And so even if sometimes I long for "what might have been" (career-wise) had I made totally different decisions at an earlier point, it is very wonderful at other times to be able to consider all the things that are very fulfilling about where I am now (which involves looking at my situation holistically).
Thanks, everyone, for your insights and candor.
-A.H.
Barbara responds to this topic with her own experience:
I'm stretching myself in self-disclosing here, but I am relating deeply to the issue around life after graduate school, having come from academics myself. So here goes: I want to respond about returning to school per S.H. I love Stacey's response about coaching helping clients think outside the box. And would like to build on her response. Also, I would like to build on A.H.'s email that "One thing that we PhDs must indeed be good at is just that - learning."
I am going to describe some experiences I've had that you may or may not want to generalize to your own. When I worked in a software company, I started out as a business analyst. Then, when over a 5-year period, I was promoted to a Manager of Operations, and then to a Director of Business Planning, my promotions were NOT based on whether or not I had an MBA. And in fact, I was directly competing with three people who had MBAs, who worked in that company, i.e. not just people who sent in resumes, for the Manager and then again for the Director position. What worked for me in getting these promotions was that:
1) I took on tasks that most other people did not want to do. Sometimes the people with the MBAs thought they were "too good" to do certain work and would pass difficult jobs to me. Their bosses saw that. And they saw my ability to learn quickly and to actually step up and do certain unpleasant jobs, go into some dark caves in the company, so to speak. And get results.
2) I networked continuously. I had lunch with Directors, Managers, VPs, and even invited myself to have lunch with the CEO (who I later worked for directly). So that when I was going to be considered for the promotions, almost everyone who would have to work with me at the Director level, knew me, knew about my work AND I knew what they were thinking, needing too. I already was accepted into that "Group", so the promotion came naturally.
3) From all I have read and experienced, people hire and promote people they like to be around, if skills are more or less equal. And most companies, non-profits, any institution have both the organizational chart, and then there is this subterraneous system of alliances. People who are friends, enemies, the town storyteller. You have to negotiate through the alliances to get work done and to get hired and promoted.
4) I found that every time I completed some major breakthrough in my personal growth, within a month, I was promoted or given a raise at work. Major personal work for me included finding resolution over a major conflict in my personal therapy (often involving forgiveness and acceptance), receiving my next belt level in kung fu, saying No to a relationship that wasn't working. This, by the way, is why I know coaching is so powerful. When you make a major change in one area of your life, it positively affects most, if not all the others. If I'm stuck and not getting clients, I clean my office, garage, garden, etc., for example.
Finally, another experience, when I was starting out as a technical writer, having never done it before, I sold myself using two transferable skills, as Julie has talked about in her emails. 1) I sold my ability as a writer. 2) And I sold my ability as a bridge between two cultures, i.e. translating technical terms to the layperson. I had a great recommendation for this job (Networking again). But (And this is the point with A.H.'s email), I asked the hiring manager for a HIGHER salary based on my MA degree (remember this is in History of Science, not computer science!). I told him that he could know from me having that degree that I could learn quickly, so he was actually SAVING MONEY by hiring me, rather than hiring someone who would take more time to learn. Also, I told him having educated people would look good to their customers, because their primary customer (IBM) liked working with intelligent people. This worked and I negotiated up the salary they were originally offering. Granted, this was over 15 years ago, but I think that having an education is a great sales tool in the marketplace if you position it well.
For me personally, I feel great gratitude to my professors in my undergraduate and graduate school training, who taught me to analyze, to think, to recognize trends, to learn quickly, to distill the essence of an argument, to speak out in a group, to research, to write and rewrite papers quickly and thoroughly. All transferable skills.
Barbara
P.D. picks up on some of Barbara's comments:
Barbara, could you comment further on how cleaning your garden has effected positive growth in your professional life? I have a garden and am avid in keeping it up. As yet, I've seen no discernable improvement in my spiritual or professional growth from these daily forays out into the garden. But I am looking, Barbara -- both within and without -- and am hopeful that my own personal Odyssey toward spiritual awakening and professional reward will be met. How can I parlay cleaning my garden into bliss?
Thank you.
Barbara clarifies previous posting:
Ok,
So, my last sentence was vague.
But I'll elaborate on my point. I think that sometimes not thinking, not trying, using ambition to reach a goal is important.
I find new solutions when think a lot about a topic, talk with a lot of people, pose questions in my journaling, and then let it go. Cleaning, gardening, working out, is a time out for me; a not-intellectually thinking time. It's a time to let go. Answers to questions seem to occur to me then. Or at the least, I get a break from thinking too much.
Barbara
C.P. comments on spiritual values of gardening:
I appreciate Barbara's response. It's good to have some version of this in one's life. But I think the virtues of gardening (or other such activities) actually do go beyond this, or at least they can. Take weeding for example. Now, I'm not expert gardener, not by a long shot so that whatever insights I gained in gardening might be either a) a function of my amateurishness in the garden or b) obvious to everyone. But they were still discoveries to me. So weeding. A couple of years ago, I'm prepping the garden, weeding, tilling, picking rocks and twigs out. And I'm really into it. Finding that one particular weed has like this tiny, but extensive thread-like fabric of roots just below the surface of the earth. Diabolical! Thread-like, no, more like spider-web like. The gentlest tug, it seemed, would leave the better part of the fabric safely underground. Now I can be as diligent, not to say obsessed, as the next guy. So the first thing I found was that what I thought was the gentlest tug turned out not be the gentlest. I could be still gentler and then, ah, the satisfaction of a seemingly vast fabric of these roots would lift magically out of the ground, sifting the lovely soil as it came. The second thing I found was that I got tired of being that gentle. And so a couple days later, those roots that had eluded me had sprouted new little weed plants. Okay so I still don't know the names of those weeds. Nor do I now know the best way to get rid of them. And in that particular case, I didn't work through any *particular* problem I'd been trying to solve in my life or in my work. But it did occur to me that I have "weeds" in my life -- fear, delusion, anger, and resentment. I mean, a weed is just something you'd rather not have growing in that particular place, right. That's it. So I have those in the garden of my mind too. And being a good guy, and a guy who prides himself on being a good guy, when I notice those, I can sometimes be a bit too vigorous in trying to just yank them up (that is when I don't just surreptitiously kick dirt over them). So I thought to myself, right, it's probably good to extend that gentleness to the weeds of the mind, a kind of limitless gentleness which of course I can't ever actually achieve in reality. But just shooting for limitlessness in that regard, certainly takes me to levels of gentleness I'd previously thought outside my scope. And I thought too about the second thing...well, duh, weeds are always there, they are always going to grow back because they come from outside the garden. Spores or something right? So I live in the world and so sometimes it scares me, frustrates me, pisses me off, makes me want it in an out of control way. Gentleness in trying to feel through to the roots of those feelings. And patience and tolerance for the particularly stubborn ones. Who knows, they might finally be doing some valuable work there in the garden that I just don't know about because I don't have enough experience. That's just one example. My zen teacher talks about dharma gates without number. Dharma is the words, loosely I guess, for the teachings or the way. And I think all she means is that any experience can be an opportunity to find out something about the shape of that "way" and of my place on it, if only I am keeping an only moderately distracted eye open for it.
Peace,
C.P.
Barbara agrees with C.P.:
I completely agree. I think too peoples' minds tend to think in terms of stories. And that many people find an understanding of life by being in nature and observing how it is and having your own interaction with it, as C.P. beautifully describes.
Barbara
F.Y. continues weed conversation:
There's currently an exhibit called "Weeds" that was installed by students from Cal Arts in the children's wing of the Los Angeles County Museum of Art; They have provided materials--recycled bits of paper, cardboard, cloth, you name it--all stuff that would typically be left over and thrown out when a project is done, along with dozens of Dixie cup flower pots, filled with plaster of Paris holding a drinking-straw. The young museum-goers take whichever scraps intrigue them and turn their weeds into wanted flowers with glue, tape, crayons; When they're done, they leave their works of art there in the garden, which is truly beautiful.
It's about a change in perspective, a shift in appreciation, seeing the potential for beauty and learning to bring it out. This is precisely what I need to do in my career, and it's simple but not easy.
But it did occur to me that I have "weeds" in my life -- fear, delusion, anger, resentment; I mean, a "weed" is just something you'd rather not have growing in that particular place. That's it.
A back to school testimonial:
Hi, all. I'm yet another lurker on the WRK4US list, and for once, I feel like I have something to add to this discussion, specifically about the topic of knowing when you've found the right career path. In '94 I got my B.S. in Biology because I'd known since age 5 that I wanted to work with animals, and I spent seven years trying to get a job as a zookeeper. During that time, I volunteered with a wildlife rehabber, and while I loved the animals, I always had a niggling feeling that it was "work." Time passed and I got to know myself better, and I discovered that the demands on a keeper are completely opposite my own natural inclinations - they usually start work at dawn, I like to get up around noon. Once I came to the realization that the job I'd spent years grooming myself for wasn't really my gig, I started to look at what else I'd enjoy doing, and that's when I looked at my other passion: books.
In the fall of 2000, I decided to try going to grad school - something I'd always wanted to do - and getting a Master's in English or some similar program in an attempt to move into editing. A year later I started school and found myself having a blast. Even the classes that I didn't love weren't the chore that my science classes had been. I loved it. Last fall I took my first ever creative writing class and suddenly everything clicked. When I was supposed to be working on my thesis, I was playing around with my first novel. In January, I finally put my book aside and made myself work on my thesis. But in May, when everything was done and I was ready to graduate, I took it up again, and now I can say that I've finished my first novel, as well as having plans for my next three lined up.
Grad school showed me all the options open to me in my new field, and best of all, it exposed me to what I'm sure is the "right" path for me: novelist. I've done research on the industry and I'm aware that the chances of my ever being able to support myself are pretty slim. But it's something to strive for. I figure that I'll end up working as a teacher or copy editor to pay my bills, but I know that this is the career path for me. As funny as this may sound, I don't like writing as a general rule, but when I'm working on my book it feels right. I don't know how to explain it better than that. I love seeing what's going to happen and knowing that it's coming out of my own mind. I'm creating something. What it all boils down to is that I like working with words, and I like the freedom to determine my own schedule that working freelance gives me. I guess what tells me that this is the "right path" for me is that when I'm doing it, doing everything I need to try to make a success of this career, it doesn't feel like work. When I'm sitting in front of the computer to work on a chapter or attending a meeting or workshop from my chosen professional organization, I'm having the time of my life. It feels right. And that's how I know it's the "right career."
B.B.
U.M. asks some more questions:
Thanks to the guests for all their helpful feedback-- I have two last questions I'd like to get under the wire:
We've recently discussed the difficulties of career change-- getting that first experience in your target field, when your resume shows a completely difference work history.
Over the past couple of years, I have applied for many vacancies that looked attractive and desirable, and for which I was certain I was well qualified, by experience, personal inclination, plus a lot of transferable skills, which I *thought* my cover and resume were playing up. I never was even called in for an interview. I repeatedly ended up visualizing the HR person scanning my stuff, saying, "Oh, a completely insane person from another galaxy," and consigning it to the can.
Making strong arguments for my transferable skills, having a creative work portfolio, overcoming sales resistance, etc., haven't been of much use unless I can get a foot in the door-- which I generally have not been able to do AT ALL for the past couple of years. :P
So these days, when we know that HR people aren't giving resumes and cover letters more than a perfunctory going-over, what can we do to ensure our materials don't end up in the circular file-- and improve our chances of breaking into that target field?
Suggestions as to whether or not to include the Ph.D. are of course of great interest. ;)
U.M. continues:
I said in my previous posting that I had two questions, then asked one.
I hope none of you are prospective employers. :P
Anyway, my second one relates back to going back to school, which someone brought up earlier in the week-- Hadass mentioned the difficulties she had, and ultimately the waste of time and effort she felt about her MBA.
With my experience, nobody is more skeptical than I about graduate degrees as passports to employment. I have at the present, the equivalent of two Bachelors, two Masters, and one Doctoral degrees, and I just don't want any more. I don't want any more school unless I'm the teacher, and I really feel that unless I go into a highly specialized technical or professional field, that for God's sake, my school days should be over. Please. Please?
How can we position ourselves in approaching a new field (assuming it's not one of those highly tech or professional fields that really require a degree-- like an M.D. :P) so we can get out of this waste of time and resources? Or if not, then convince the prospective employer to pay for it?
Barbara responds to U.M.:
OK, you go for drama, opening up the can of squiggly worms at THE LAST MINUTE.
Whether or not to include PhD. That could be a week discussion.
One: you are applying for the job you are going to do, not providing your total work history. It's a judgment call.
Two: to break into a new field, NETWORK. HR people (and forgive me for those of you in HR) are gate keepers.
Barbara
Stacey responds:
Hi U.M.,
Well, this is where your network needs to be developed and cultivated. I recommend targeting companies rather than jobs. If you know the general industry you're interested in (you don't have to, it will just give you a more targeted group to weed through) then start doing some research on the companies within that industry. Ask friends, neighbors, and colleagues if they know of anyone at that company. Just get a name, and then do some informational interviewing, trying to get a sense of where your skills might fit within the organization. You may need to talk to three or four people within an organization, but if you think of it as a treasure hunt, you'll eventually find what you're after. Ideally, you'll now have a contact within that company. One that you should stay in touch with periodically. After you've established and cultivated your contact, make sure they are really clear about what you're looking for (so they can be your internal recruiter.) Tell them you'd be interested in working for their company/organization. They'll also give you some important information about your question regarding your Ph.D. Cultivating these contacts does take some time, but the payoff makes it time well spent. When I was a hiring manager, I always asked my employees first if they knew of anyone that would be interested in a particular position. As Barbara mentioned, we hire people we know and like, even if we don't know them personally, we'd rather start with someone who's connected, in some way.
Also, Barbara's message on branding is important, especially when you're trying to "jump" fields.
Warmly,
Stacey
U.M. asks a follow-up question:
Stacey, by this do you mean NOT to bother applying for those vacancies that I see advertised, that look promising and attractive, if/when I see them, if they are at institutions/companies where I don't have relationships?
Ps- Barbara wrote: Whether or not to include PhD. That could be a week discussion.---It has been. It was kind of a WRK4US joke. ;)
Stacey responds:
Yikes, U.M.... I'm typing as fast as I can!
A resume doesn't tell your whole story, why you want to change fields, etc. So, you need personal contacts to tell your story for you so that your resume doesn't look out of context. Typing quickly... look for companies/organizations that support and share your values (education, opportunities for growth, whatever) and you'll find those that fit. These types of organizations are out there. Make sure you ask questions to help you determine this during your informational interviews. So, your approach should be to try and get contacts to help make the transition.
If you think your resume is getting in the way (from your earlier message, I think) then get someone who works in HR (does anyone out there have a resource for U.M.?) to look it over and give you some feedback. If you're feeling really bold, call one of the HR people where you didn't get an interview and ask them for their advice. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. Your call. A career center can also critique your resume.
Stacey
Stacey continues:
No, I'm not suggesting this. Of course, go ahead. But, I would suggest spending less effort in this area, and much more effort on cultivating contacts. The rule of thumb is to spend 20% of your time responding to ads, and 80% building your network.
U.M. thanks coaches:
Thanks to our guests for all their wisdom and patience and quick reflexes!
Battling Depression in the Job Search
Z.B. specifies opens discussion of depression and the job search:
I will also chime in to say that several years after not being able to get ANY kind of job, post-Ph.D., I too succumbed to a classic, clinical depression. The first one in my life and, I earnestly hope, the last. I wonder how many more of us there are out there who struggle (or have struggled) with that added burden?
Y.L. expands depression comments:
The following may be bit off topic, but it seems to have arisen during the discussion... which I have been following with some interest.
My pre-doctoral internship was served in a university counseling center. It was clear to us at that time that graduate students were over-represented in the clinic population. While there may be a few reasons for this that have nothing to do with graduate school, it is not beyond the pale to believe that graduate school acts as a precipitant. It would not surprise me to find out that there is another population for whom grad school acts to "ward off" depression. Several social psychologists (Brown, Taylor, Johada, etc.) have looked at the role of "illusion" in mental health. The environment of graduate school is sufficiently illusory. That is, faculty and colleagues convince us that a prosperous academic future awaits us. Once we are funneled into the non-academic world, reality sets in. It is important to note that this jolt of reality also affects those who make it into a an academic job only to find out that there is a difference between being a "golden-haired" graduate student and a junior faculty member in a sea of brittle egos.
Further exacerbating the problem of depression among the "underemployed" is the fact that most humanities faculties are exceptionally dismal role models for career development. Most have minimal (if any) interpersonal skills and are so poor at networking that their graduate students are dumped into the sea of other underemployed PhD¹s with "no job, no prospects, no money, and no hope." I have often indicated that on the clinical side of the social sciences, we were required to do multiple fieldwork, practicum, and internship experiences. While many clinical/counseling types still pine for teaching positions, at least they have numerous contacts in the clinical world. I paused while writing this to hatch together a list of fieldwork supervisors and came up with 11! I had direct contact with senior clinical staff at these sites that numbered in excess of 21...many were directors and supervisors by the time I graduated. Most importantly, I worked with over 30 graduate students from seven different institutions. None of these numbers include the adjunct faculty with whom I worked during my program.
This has been a rather long-winded observation that gets at an important issue with regard to depression. One of the primary aspects of the clinical picture of depression is social withdrawal and isolation. Generally, I have seen clients with depression who began to withdraw after their depression began. In these cases, they were at least able to remember a pre-morbid level of social and occupational activity that was a baseline target for recovery. Other clients had come from a situation in which social/occupational isolation was the norm. In these cases, it was often difficult to have them conceptualize what it would be like to be more engaged. I think that this is the case for many humanities PhD¹s. I have had great difficulty convincing PhD students to "network." Unfortunately, I believe that they experience it as smarmy and superficial. Additionally, they have no role models for effective, positive networking. I have advised my students/clients to make at least one telephone call (not email!) per week to a former classmate or co-worker or relative or boss just to catch up. I often have them role-play these conversations with me to begin to feel comfortable with the yawning discomfort that they cause.
The great dog-and-tail problem here is that if you are depressed, you are likely to be isolated, if you are isolated you are likely to be depressed.
Barbara responds:
I really appreciate Z.B. and Y.L. bringing up the issue of depression. As a coach, I usually recommend people get a physical, if they haven't recently, to rule out any medically related issues (about depression or other problems) and so the client can take an action on their own behalf toward health. Also, if there is a longer term depression (that's anything over 3-6 months), I recommend to clients that they see a therapist, minister, counselor, etc. A clinical depression of longer than 6 months is serious. And depression influences your ability to take action, your ability to relate to significant others, co-workers, and yourself in a positive way. There are often anger issues (a whole other week on a list serve could be spent on how anger is handled in our society.)
Here's an article on depression:
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1175/5_34/82261879/p1/article.jhtml
Here's web site on depression:
http://www.depression-screening.org/
In your geographical areas, I'm sure there are agencies or counseling centers at the university, where you work or attend grad school, that provide low cost services.
Barbara
Dealing with Problems Even in an Ideal Job
Subscriber V.J. asks how to tackle problems in jobs that are rewarding in some ways:
Thank you to the guest speakers for giving your time to engage in this discussion with us.
My question concerns knowing what you want to do but understanding that the environment of the career may actually not be the best match for your overall well-being. Do you ever counsel clients that love certain aspects of their job but are unable to accept or come to terms with other aspect of it, aspects that are key to their overall fulfillment or to their health (physical and mental)?
Thank you,
V.J.
Subscriber R.R. asks how to find a second ideal job when the first ceases to satisfy:
Hi all,
I've been following different discussions for a while with lots of interest, but now I have a burning question, or maybe several.
My name is R.R. I got MA in Ed a month ago, plus, I taught in academia for 3-4 years. This is my third week at my new job - has nothing to do with teaching. I wanted to move away from teaching into admin for a long time. And I got that perfect job. I am a program coordinator for a non-profit that works toward developing and enhancing relationships between US and Russia. I love the job and my colleagues, the pay, the perks, the feeling that I'm working on something that directly and indirectly helps my country, Kazakhstan. The only thing - it takes at least 12 hours out of my day. The commute is about 3 hours round trip (which I try to spend reading something good or catching up on sleep). Plus, if we have conference calls, I get home after about 14 hours of leaving it in the morning. In grad school I had more time to do creative and cultural things. Now I feel like I'm absolutely out of touch with my creative side. I do feel like I got my ideal job, but now I don't know what to do with the rest of my life or a total lack of it! After reading different questions posed on the site (how do you know you got your ideal job?) I'm starting to wonder. Is it still ideal if there is nothing but the job? I guess not, if I'm asking this question. I would appreciate if anyone has any advice, except "quit sleeping." I do love that too!
G.P.
Another question about a dream job that ceases to be wonderful:
I currently have a job I love. I am using my degree, I am making a difference in my community every day and have a boss who understands the need for time away from the office to feed the soul. The problem is, the great boss is leaving for her dream job and the new boss just does not have the same philosophy. I really don't want to stick around and watch all that we have built up disappear.
But, how do I find a job that is this fulfilling again? Most of my experience is in another field that I don't want to go back to.
And, what do I tell perspective employers about why I am leaving without sounding like I am a difficult person to work with who leaves when she is unhappy?
R.R.
Barbara responds to R.R.:
Hi R.R.,
I've been thinking about your email this week. I understand your current life of loving your job, job schedule, and wanting the balance of also working with people you enjoy to work with. I wonder, though, if part of the reason you want to leave is feeling a type of loss over your current boss leaving? If you had that wonderful of a relationship with her, I can see why it would be upsetting to you that she's leaving.
Also, I wonder if you could influence the new boss to have more of YOUR philosophy? I suspect you'll be the person training the new boss, so have you considered what you could offer her/him? Without knowing the specifics again, and please forgive me if I'm off in this, but what would it be like for you to work with the new boss for at least 3 months, develop your goals how you want to influence the new boss, and then make a decision whether or not to leave?
Finally, your assignments:
Develop a list of what you like about your job and dislike about your job.
Keep a daily list of what you're grateful for at your job.
Do a closure activity with your current boss, like taking her to lunch, dinner, or something, and let her know how much you'll miss her.
Note: If you decide to leave, you can tell perspective employers that you "outgrew the position." And are "looking for new opportunities." You don't have to get into politics. Every company, institution, family, country has them.
Barbara
R.R. continues:
Let me clarify something, the new boss taking off is the current deputy in the job. I am already well aware of this person's style and approach to the job after observing it for the last year. In fact, he has already made it quite clear that his approach will be radically different. So different that it will affect the functioning of the office in a way I cannot personally live with. All the things I love about the job, like making a difference every day will disappear. All the things I hate like chaos, nothing being done, etc. will occur. Okay, maybe not this extreme, but the balance is already shifting to the negative outweighing the positives.
I like the idea of saying "I outgrew the position." That shows I am willing to grow and take on new responsibilities.
Gardening -- Okay, I don't garden, I sew. But I have found that if I have a sewing project, I get more research done. I can do a couple of seams then do some research, then do some more seams. While sewing my mind is still in creative mode so I am thinking of the research while I am making some new clothes for myself. Plus, there is the satisfaction of seeing an actual something tangible at the end of it.
Barbara responds to G.P.:
How wonderful for you! Congratulations on your new job! What does that daily ideal lifestyle look like? What would you envision? What would it take to create the lifestyle you want? I would love to do a visualization with you, but can't online, so I'll just pose some questions about what would your week look like if it included time for health, relationships with friends, recreation, alone time? What steps could you take to add more of your ideal lifestyle for yourself each month?
On an entire other line of thought, many companies allow people to telecommute a few days a week, or to take conference calls on cell phones. After getting your feet wet, are there compromises in the job that the nonprofit culture would allow you to negotiate?
What is it about the job you love?
Barbara
Paula offers advice to R.R.:
R.R.--One option would be to seek fulfillment right where you are through working with this new person to see what you can do with her through careful relationship-building. She may not be as bad as you think. It's a new job for her--new jobs are always scary--and she may be ratcheting up her own rigor, or appearance of rigor, simply out of fear.
Just a thought.
Paula Foster
K.T. confesses fears even after having a fulfilling job:
I finished my Ph.D. six years ago. I've been self-employed as an editor almost since I started graduate school twenty years ago. I love the things I do now--writing books, coaching other writers through their books, copyediting inspiring books, being an adjunct faculty member, starting a nonprofit land trust.
I don't want to change my lifestyle. It took me many years to work up to the balance I now have in negotiating both the inner and outer worlds. I don't regret the Ph.D.; I went into the program with my eyes open, knowing that I didn't want to spend my career in the classroom. I don't question any of these choices; clearly they've seen me through to the best part of my life.
But I have to confess one niggling fear--that I'm selling myself short. Most days this takes the form of fearing that I'm not using "enough" of my education. Simply put, you don't need a Ph.D. to do any of the things I'm doing. Some days I get reminded, too, that I don't make as much money as I would in the academy (imagine THAT!).
Do the coaches have words of wisdom for this issue of feeling happy in what I'm doing yet wondering if I'm selling myself short?
K.T.
Stacey picks up a common thread in K.T.'s question:
K.T.,
Thanks for bringing this up. You've articulated a common theme beautifully.
I would ask you to consider a couple of questions:
What does it cost you to look at your life choices in this way?
What assumptions are you making about all this?
When I read your story, I noticed someone who's made some incredible choices about the type of life she wants to live. Courageous, inside-out types of choices. What do you see?
Fear comes up when we're on the edge of change. What's changing for you?
Barbara also responds to K.T.:
Dear K.T.,
I have a friend who once told me "nothing is wasted." I believe you might FEEL you could be doing more, but I question the reality of that. Jobs I had done in college, like being the dishwasher at a dorm kitchen, seemed to have no purpose to me other than I made some extra money and got to play with water (I'm a Pisces and like water sports, living near the ocean, etc.). But, when I worked as an MFT Intern for a year at an all-boys county probation camp for teens, I could relate to the teens because many of them had jobs as dishwashers. Having this tedious and seemingly irrelevant experience, opened up doors of bonding with my clients. Nothing is wasted.
So I wonder if it's a gremlin (we coaches at CTI call them this, it's the voices that tell you you're not good enough, the over-active parent in you. We help clients kick gremlins out the door of the office during coaching.), saying you SHOULD be doing more.
Now, on the other hand, if you strongly intuitively know (it's hard to get a sense of your tone from email) that you have more to offer, what is it you'd like to be doing more of? From your email, you seem to have a wonderful career, and lifestyle you enjoy. What more would you like to do or be? Where do you feel anxious / excited if you think about doing something new? What is that thing? That cutting edge for you? What is it you would be doing if you weren't selling yourself short?
A Challenge This Week for K.T.: Find 10 things you can do this week that stretch yourself in any area of your life, doesn't just have to be a career issue. It can be in a relationship, trying something new for recreation, saying something to someone you've always wanted to, etc.
Barbara
Wrapping Up With How to Begin the Process of Changing Careers
U.M. clarifies a question from earlier to form a new topic:
Since I think from the response I received for this, I didn't make myself clear, I'll try re-phrasing.
I'm obviously in a more chaotic place, emotionally and practically, than a lot of the others who have taken advantage of the guests' skills. They've asked more focused and concrete questions. Do the guests have any suggestions-- aside from professional help for my depression--about what questions I can ask myself, or books I might read, techniques I might use to focus my thinking to *begin* determining a new, improved "Mission in Life" and baby steps I might begin to take to get there?
U.M.
J.K. asks how people identify passions:
Barbara, specifically, how do you help your clients to identify their passions? Seems like a dumb question--shouldn't I just KNOW what I'm passionate about?
J.K.
V.J. relates with her own story:
I think this is my question as well. While I know I love teaching at the college level, the job market, ah yes, leaves much to be desired and I want a family and time to have a family. With this being the case, I am trying to figure out what else I can do when I grow up, that doesn't consist of grant writing or editing. I would prefer to not get caught up with any of that stuff. I have contemplated technical writing, but I would prefer to do something with more active teaching. The thought of writing manuscripts and the like for the rest of my life makes me want to run quickly to another planet. I love writing, but I prefer to write about things that interest me. At the same time, however, I have very little real world experience and feel as if my degree, the last 10 years of my life, etc. have been wasted. The only non-academic skills I have picked up concern running an adult day care center, and I have many reasons for not wanting to do that for the rest of my life, to say nothing about the lack of pay or benefits. So like U.M., I am not even sure where to begin.
V.J.
Another testimonial:
I am also in a more chaotic and depressed place than a lot of the participants this week. I've recently been laid off from a full time lectureship at a university where I had worked for a long time and I'm going to be applying for unemployment in about two weeks. Some nasty academic politics and the abysmal job market have really combined against me. I have my share of complaints about academic life, but it's really the only work I've ever done and unlike a lot of you, I'm at age where I'm worried about being able to enter a new line of work. So I feel I don't have the luxury of a laid-back sort of career options search, since I have to find some way to pay the mortgage. Any suggestions?
H.H.
Subscriber K.L. gives some advice:
I just joined today, and usually I lurk a bit before jumping into this sort of conversation, but I'd like to make some suggestions to Julie and Theresa because I feel your pain. Much like writing a dissertation, it's easy to get overwhelmed by what's out there. Nothing looks quite like what you imagine yourself doing. Or perhaps, like me, you find yourself completely paralyzed by what's out there, and you can't imagine yourself doing any of it at all.
I finished my dissertation in English in 2002; I've been working as the assistant director of a university center since 1999. I'm not entirely satisfied with the job I have now, but I just wanted to say there's "out" of academia and there's OUT. So, there may be a sort of intermediary "safe place," academic, but not too academic, where you can work while making the Bigger Decisions.
My husband had a much easier time figuring out where his nonacademic post-PhD life would take him. And the thing he did over and over again was *informational interviewing*. He knew he wanted to work in education, with students, but also to have "more of a life" than college teaching would afford. So he interviewed people in museums. That led him to archives. And that led him to libraries. Which are arguably not (necessarily) outside of academia, but he's much happier. Sure, it's more school, but it can be done p/t (and relatively quickly) while he works as an academic advisor.
Speaking of academic advising, this a relatively easy job to get, real foot-in-the-door stuff, and you can keep working with students, if that's what you like. It's high turnover, in part, because at many universities, you can get promoted from these jobs.
K.L.
Y.L. recommends other career services options:
I often wince when I see pleas for resources on the list. Typically, I do not respond because I feel that doing so will be perceived as either defensive or self-serving (perhaps defensively self-serving?) However, given the nature of this week's discussion, I will offer a little direction.
I know of no university that does not have a career center on campus. Often, they toil in anonymity. (In our case, we are on the far side of campus...a hefty walk from the majority of students we serve.) I spoke with several students from a sister institution the other day...all bright motivated students who told me that their campus did not have a career center. Not only did I tell them that they were wrong, but I gave them directions and the name of the assistant director.
Just as all campuses have career centers, almost all campuses provide services for alumni. Yes, one typically must pay for these services, but the charges are usually quite reasonable. (Here at UCR the charge is $75 for five sessions.) There are exceptions to this rule...schools that charge horrendous rates to discourage alumni or simply do not offer these services to alums. In general, however, most schools offer some package of services.
The larger R1's typically have a staff person devoted to graduate students. (Again, here at UCR, I am the Coordinator of Graduate Student Services.) I am currently working with no less than five alumni of our graduate programs.
All of this works if you live near your alma mater. So what do you do if you left town and relocated 300 miles away?
Many public universities have reciprocity agreements between branches. For instance, if you graduated from Berkeley and live in Palm Springs, you can (for a modest fee) receive services at UCR. Check and see what your alma mater has in the way of reciprocity.
Private universities used to have a consortium for this purpose. I do not know if it is still in effect, but I it would be a good idea to check with the director of your school's career center.
In the non-profit sector, there are a myriad of resources. For those of you who are past Forty (Although I am sure that you are all wee, tiny young things!) there is 40-Plus. ( http://www.40plus-dc.org/other_40plus.htm ) with about 30 chapters in 14 states and Canada.
Many churches, synagogues, and ecumenical organizations offer career support ministries. In the early 1990's I volunteered at one of these ministries and offered resume/cv workshops, assessment, individual consultation, and support groups. I was quite surprised at the clientele that ranged from semi-skilled workers to lawyers and teachers. Places like the RLS Career Center in Syracuse ( http://www.rlscareercenter.org/ ), the APC Career Center in Alpharetta ( http://www.alpharettapres.com/Career.htm ), The Career Center at Hartford College for Women in Hartford, ( http://careercounselingcenter.org/EntrepreneurialCenter-Main.htm ) and The Centerpointe Institute for Life and Career Renewal in Seattle ( http://www.centerpointonline.org/ ) are examples of places that offer some sort of sliding scale access to services.
There is no dearth of services available...even on the cheap.
One final word on all of this. One of the biggest problems that I have here at UCR is convincing graduate students and completed PhD's that their dilemma is no different from that of any other individual looking for a job. The biggest hurdle is getting them past the notion that they shouldn't have to actually look for a job, pound the pavement, network, and be polite.
Bon chance!
L.Y.
Barbara responds to H.H.:
Hi H.H.,
I'm sorry about your job loss. I've been laid off twice and it's a difficult experience. If you have the time, I would suggest giving yourself a little time to recover from the shock of the layoff. You may still have a lot of feelings around the issue and need some time to process any shock, anger, relief, etc. with friends, family, etc. I would suggest to also let people know you've been laid off and what you're looking for, so that they can watch for jobs for you too. I think it's very brave of you, for example, to post this information on this list.
Sometimes, as Stacey wrote, it's easier to just do something and then change course from there. If you don't feel you have luxury of a career search, start with where you are, and look and see what unfolds. If there is some job you can do to "pay the mortgage", one option is to take it, and continue looking for a more ideal fit. If we think of job hunting and career changing as more of a process, what would be the one next step you could do today to get you closer to a job? And who are 5 people you could tell this week and weekly till you get the job, about the fact you're looking? (I guess you've already done that with 1200 people!) But what are you looking for ideally? If you're ready, you might want to put that out here today.
Barbara
N.K. responds to H.H.:
If it's of any comfort H.H., I worked in software for many years and know lots of bright people who have been laid off multiple times. At least in the Bay area, while it's no fun to be laid off, everyone knows it's not about you. It's about how companies deal (incorrectly in my view) with financial difficulties. People who get laid off do eventually find another position generally (Or I wouldn't know so many people, including myself, who have been laid off multiple times). The first time is the worst, I think (IBM was my first). By the fourth time (Sun Microsystems in my case), it's become almost business as usual.
It's just the way things go in corporate America. I'm not trying to be glib. It's been eight months since I was laid off last and I know it's depressing, but it helps, I think, to remember that this is how corporate America works. It's not about you. It's about executives finding ways to protect their three houses and cut costs at the same time. The last time I was laid off, I was stunned at who else was laid off. It was clearly not done with logic in mind, so don't feel singled out either.
Stacey responds to U.M.:
Hi U.M.,
I think there's been some general questions in earlier posts that you could use as a starting point. Go with the ones that resonate with you.
Regarding your request for how to begin to focus on a new mission, I have some book suggestions:
Finding Your Own North Star - Martha Beck
Find Your Purpose, Change Your Life: Getting to the Heart of Your Life , Carol Adrienne
Career Intelligence , Barbara Moses
Gifted Grownups: the mixed blessings of extraordinary potential , Marylou Streznewski
And, echoing Darryl's suggestion, check out a career center. Great place to take some baby steps.
Stacey
R.A. gives U.M. advice:
Baby steps sometimes work when things are overwhelming. I will make one new phone call, list one strength. I'll share lunch with a friend and ask for help.
When a dear friend had to change careers in mid-life, and felt lost--couldn't even think of transferable strengths, we had him over for dinner and went around the table listing strengths. One of our kids, about four at the time, liked the games our friend made up to play with him, you know the physical throw-the-kid-in-the-air stuff. with variations and funny names. We translated that "strength" into creativity, ability to relate well with all sorts of people, open to new things. Another child liked the way he listened to her stories without interrupting, as other grown-ups did. From that, we said he was a good team player, etc.
We put it all into a bunch of post-its, so that he could put it on the mirror, to remind himself of all he took for granted about his strengths. They're the hardest thing to see in ourselves, we use them all the time, and never notice them. They're like the air we breathe.
I'm just another unemployed (and increasingly worried) PhD, no counselor or anything, but perhaps --if you can't make a list of your strengths--you could do it with some friends.
I think my kids were really on to some important stuff because our friend is a very creative, out of the box thinker, who is great working on teams, as well as alone. So, silly little moments can tell us about ourselves in wonderful ways.
When we choose a new "identity," as in deciding upon a major or picking an institution to attend for college, the choice is fun-if scary. When life thrusts change upon us and it is unwelcome, it can be a loss, and grief is ok. My friend grieved a lot, and couldn't get started. But he's doing great in his new job. It was getting the search started that was hardest for him.
He actually started enjoying the informational interviews, something he had dreaded. Getting started and letting go of the past were the hardest. It was so hard to see his strengths and he assumed that they were simply universal qualities, rather than special aspects of himself.
I don't know if this experience is helpful. But post-its on the bathroom mirror with a new strength each day, no matter how silly it may seem, may help start things?
And someone to share it with, updates and all? We cheered on our friend, honored that he trusted us. He's been supportive in turn, as I've been going through an interminably long dry spell of informational interview, and job applications that seem to drop off the earth.
Best wishes,
R.A.
Julie responds to V.J.:
A few questions:
"but I prefer to write about things that interest me" - What interests you? Write everything that interests you down!
"only non-academic skills" - Please don't take my comments in the wrong way (they are coming from a caring heart!): I don't believe that these are your only skills! One thing that I've seen in just these four days of emails, is a lot of people who are minimizing the skills that they have gained from their academic experience, and a lot of assumptions that these skill are not valuable anywhere else. I'm going to go out on a limb and come up with 10 transferable skills that I bet you have, and most of your other colleagues have, just as a starting point.
1-writing; critical, analytical, creative, technical (could be 4 skills, but I'll just keep it at one!)
2-training - your teaching experience applied outside of the classroom IS training. Non-profits and the corporate world hire trainers in lots of areas.
3-project management - you completed a dissertation...that's project management to me! :)
4-research - everyone seems comfortable with this
5-foreign language skills
6-leadership skills - mentored junior colleagues/students, led committees
7-conflict management/resolution - dealing with the politics of one's department, etc.
8-public speaking/verbal communication skills
9-interpersonal skills - negotiation, giving feedback, challenging others, supporting others, teamwork
10-problem solving
Now, if you have even 5 of these skills (which I'm sure you have and even more), you can begin playing with mixing the skills and interests and seeing where they might be applicable. This process is likely to take some research (skill above!) as well as talking to others.
I do believe breaking this process down in to small steps is VERY important. If it looks or feels overwhelming or scary to you, it will be, and you probably won't get very far. If you can think of just one action to do each day that has you either thinking more about this process, feeling better about yourself and the process or looking at what possibilities are available, you'll be one step farther ahead than you were the day before. As momentum builds, my hunch is that you'll take bigger steps.
Again, please forgive my bluntness if it came across as rude. I'm just amazed by the talent, wisdom and self-awareness that I've seen from everyone who has posted, and I would love for you to embrace that! (OK, I'm getting off my soapbox! :) )
Best,
Julie
V.J. thanks Julie for her advice:
Thank you Julie.
I do need to just break it down like this. Thanks for getting me pointed in the right direction.
Stacey gives some general advice:
OK, I've just got to say it - Start anywhere! Start by asking yourself what you want. Start by asking yourself what you don't want. Start by visiting a career center. Start by listing your strengths (another great book is Now Discover Your Strengths by Buckingham and Clifton).
Start by doing an informational interview. It really doesn't matter. The point is, just start with what you can see, from your current vantage point, and go from there. You don't need to have all the answers before you take a baby step. Career transition isn't a linear process so there's not just one place to start.
C.P. backs Stacey:
Yes! YES!
A small example: One of the littlest, simplest and yet most illuminating things I did about six months ago was to take a sheet of notebook paper and a pen and just write down all the things (activities, not "jobs" "occupations" or "careers") that I liked to do (everything from take road trips on back roads, to talking with my friend Vincenzo, to talking with strangers, to painting, taking a bath, and so on). Then for a while I just watched myself. Was I doing these things? If not, why not? What else was I doing instead? Partly it just helped me to make more enjoyable use of the free time I had. But ultimately it helped me to get a better sense of where, for lack of a better word, the roots of my joy lie.
I'm so glad Stacey said this. I was stuck for years feeling like I couldn't quit this job unless I had the next one all lined up. Then a wise friend pointed out that perhaps I wouldn't be able to see the next steps in the path until I'd taken the first one which, fortunately and unfortunately, was the one out of the academy. Sometimes maybe you've just got to move a little bit in order to see better.
Peace,
C.P.
Barbara adds her comments:
Hi Group,
I need to jump in here and respond to Y.L's and Stacy's comments. For those of you transitioning from graduate school to the NOT graduate school world, it can be scary and different. In family systems, we'd call it "launching" from your pseudo-family. In your current pseudo-family, the rules, norms or how things work, i.e. the assumptions, are predictable, comfortable, and "normal" to you. When you go into another situation, like a job in a corporation, non-profit, or self-employed, how things work are not predictable, are very uncomfortable, and are strange.
I completely agree with Stacey to start anywhere. An analogy that you may or may not find useful is to think about your work transition as if you were going on a trip to a foreign country. What would you do to prepare? Where would you start? It wouldn't matter, but at come point, you would probably do all these things:
-You would look up in books, on the internet, and check a lot about the places you're considering going to. (Do your research about fields you are considering.)
-You would talk to people who've been there, to get tips. (informational interviews)
-You would learn at least some of the language in the foreign country. (terms in fields vary, speak the language of the natives!)
-You would check out the price of the expenses, as best as you can. (this analogy deals with the cost to you of taking certain jobs, i.e. the tradeoffs you think you might have to make, but you might just have to go to the new job to really know this.)
-You would get maps. (Know your field.)
-You would think about what you would like to do, see, smell, taste, hear. (what do you want to Get from your new job? How can you use the next job to prepare you for the job after that?)
-You would think about what people you would like to get to know, who have interests similar to yours, and strike up a conversation when you arrive. (you find people to work with who you can have fun with, or common interests with, feel called to provide a service to, etc.)
And, to echo Y.L., this is what everyone has to go through in making a transition from any work culture to any other work culture. But it can be a grand adventure. It can be a lot of fun to explore your options. There is no right answer, like there is on a test. There are options, and the answer is in you about what you PREFER to do. Take a risk, explore!
Barbara
S.S. provides a testimonial:
Hi,
I've being lurking through this discussion all week and found it fascinating and inspiring. Thanks to everyone who shared their experiences -- I could relate to most as I've made the transition myself out of academia.
This discussion has inspired me to invest more time pursuing some of those passions that led me to and through grad school, which are not being met at my current job, which is otherwise working out well. (These are a keen interest in Latin American culture and languages as well as the relationships between cultural/social development, economic development and communications technologies).
This discussion also confirmed to me that I'd guessed right in handling my own career change, although with out a coach some of the wisdom our wonderful speakers are offering, I often had to learn the hard way -- through making mistakes. So, for anyone considering making a shift, I'd recommend printing out their messages to keep for reading in a few months when you need direction or inspiration.
In terms of where to start, here's what helped me the most.
1. Making that firm decision to get away from academia. For me it meant not putting my name in for additional adjunct teaching positions where I was. That was liberating in that instead of my options being confined to a very narrow path, they now were broad and really the possibilities were endless.
2. Knowing that others had done it. I found Mark Johnson's Sellout website especially appealing -- it spoke to me and my situation (he's changed it a lot since then, but it's still work a visit). I followed links to other former PhD's stories on the web, and gained confidence and inspiration from them.
3. I decided that rather than finding a new career, I needed to start with simply a post-academic JOB. Both me, and my resume, needed to break away from academia. The plan was to find a job for about a year, and then look for another job (another step) after that. Thinking about taking a position for a year meant that I could be less picky about exactly what I was doing. I considered it a "step" in the transition to a post-academic career, and not the transition itself. As it happened, I learned so much about corporate culture, language, teamwork, hierarchies versus teams and dealt with great, brilliant people on projects and with less-than-brilliant difficult ones on other projects. I learned what things I liked and disliked about corporate culture, which has made the next steps easier. I was paid to learn a lot of useful information that you can't learn from a book.
The above job was at a dot com, and was followed by a lengthy period of unemployment (but while receiving unemployment insurance, which in Canada lasts a while), which actually gave me a great space in which to consider my next move and broaden my horizons, going through many of the steps recommended here -- listing my strengths and skills, listing all jobs I could do.
4. When I had limited luck finding work, rather than blaming world conditions in the Fall of 2001 (which was certainly part of the problem), I decided to list all the likely reasons I wasn't getting hired for the jobs to which I was applying. I decided that my gaps were either a lack of a web-writing portfolio for some jobs, and a lack of evidence that I could handle economic discussions and corporate financial summaries for another set of jobs. So I started looking for ways to gain "proof" or "experience" in these areas and by coincidence met the editor of an online financial information website who desperately needed help, but couldn't afford to hire anyone. I couldn't believe my luck -- immediately I offered to work for free part time in return for his mentoring me on being a business writer.
When I had an interview for my current position, the question of my ability to write financial information and economic analysis came up. When I told them that I was currently doing some "freelance" work for the financial news website, AND pulled out writing samples from the previous day's edition of the site, the tone of the interview changed and people seemed more enthusiastic about me.
So, the "baby steps" approach -- break it down into the littler things that need to be done worked for me.
I recall some advice given about dissertation / thesis writing (which most of us are familiar with!) that fits here -- everyday do something toward finishing the project. Even on a bad, uninspired day do something -- on a thesis you would look up a reference, proofread one page, etc. Doing the equivalent with job searching will help make the task more manageable.
Thanks again everyone for a really fascinating discussion!
Barbara thanks S.S.:
Thanks, S.S. I really liked your suggestions.
Barbara
Subscriber C.F. asks for advice:
Hello All,
I've been following the discussion with great interest, particularly threads related to C.P.'s reflections. He captures a mood that I relate to and identifies many goals that I share. After visiting his personal Web site, which nicely complements his posts, I felt inspired to formulate a question of my own that has a Web-based counterpart. My site, at http://www.beyondwriting.com , reflects my attempts to explore new career paths by bringing together the creative, academic, and professional strands of my life. Currently at an impasse, I would welcome any suggestions that you have.
As I mentioned in a previous contribution to this list, I received my Ph.D. ten years ago from a Midwestern university after returning to graduate school late in life to prepare for 'meaningful' work. Because I designed my own interdisciplinary program, combining studies in the media arts with critical theory, I was warned in advance that prospects for academic positions would be limited. I planned on working in the cultural community, so I proceeded anyway, optimistic about the future.
By now I've had a chance to work with several cultural institutions in the Los Angeles area and to assess the 'new media' scene that emerged in the 1990s; yet, I'm still trying to find my niche. A few years ago, I started writing scholarly essays again, revising my dissertation on women's autobiographical videos and critiquing Web-based auto/biographical sites. Two essays have been published so far. I also created my personal Web site, primarily to make selected writing and research accessible and to find new audiences. Although the site has been up for more than two years, little has come of it in the way of work, contacts, or recognition.
Contrary to my initial expectations, I have not figured out how to create marketable projects and services that generate revenue. I want to work independently as a writer, and, if possible, draw on my background in autobiography and biography. Unfortunately, I lack the type of portfolio and practical experience that clients expect a person my age to have. I've thought about writing personal biographies on a contract basis for individuals who want to document their lives for family and friends, but several professionals in the field have offered discouraging feedback. They have suggested that because such work rarely proves lucrative, it might serve me better as a hobby rather than as a career. Right now, I'm looking for a career. I live in Southern California, but I'm willing to relocate.
I would appreciate your insights.
Best,
C.F.
Stacey responds:
C.F.,
There's something really strong and knowing about what you've written that I can't put my finger on (or, it's late and my brain is drained). I have a couple of pondering-type questions for you: How would you know if you found the right career? What would it feel like? Where does this point you? And, this is more of a challenge than a question - What would it be like if you trusted your instinct about writing personal biographies?
Warmly,
Stacey
Barbara responds to C.F., as well:
I agree with Stacey. I started an email to you about five times and never could quite get to what I was sensing. I agree completely with Stacey's challenge to you.
And I loved your web site. Your colors are incredibly gorgeous, the way you have us find our way through LA is incredible, like a wonderful adventure.
Another question that I am having trouble phrasing: When people tell you their life story, what images or roadmap or framework do you keep in mind to understand them?
My assignment to you: Paint your life story.
Finally, you might enjoy Po Bronson's book What Should I do With my Life ?
Barbara
Paula Foster offers some suggestions:
C.F.,
There's a professional association that might be of great help to you: The Association of Professional Communication Consultants (APCC). Communication consulting embraces a wide range of specific services--for example, delivering training seminars in writing, executive coaching on oral presentation, technical or business writing on a contract basis, etc. Many members sell their services as writers. Most members have academic backgrounds (many, even, are still teaching) but they LOVE helping each other build consulting practices. Membership is ridiculously inexpensive--the best fifty bucks you'll ever spend if you go in this direction.
Visit APCC at this website.
BTW, I am not surprised that your website has not brought in business. No website can do that without other marketing methods being used as well. You can learn about marketing from APCC.
Good luck,
Paula Foster
L.L. thanks Paula for the suggestion:
Thanks for letting us know about this association. I'm curious to know whether there are other kinds of consulting associations that aid people like us with specialized knowledge to connect with people in need of that knowledge. Any suggestions would be most welcome.
Regards,
L.L.
Barbara gives suggestions on transitioning:
To the Group,
I've been noticing in many posts a question of: "if I build the field, will they come?" I want to respond to that because the answer is "no", unless they know about it and it's something they need, and is priced right.
I want to build on Paula's paragraph to C.F. on Marketing.
There is a web site and a book called The Brand Called You by Peter Montoya.
(He's also written articles, but I don't have those references in front of me right now.)
The idea Peter builds on is how to basically brand yourself, in a company, agency, or wherever, so that you are known for your unique combination of strengths - building on T.J's wonderful post yesterday.
In making the transition from being a university student to any job, it may be useful to have not only the career management skills Julie has often mentioned, but also to consider developing marketing and sales skills, taking just one adult education class in marketing and sales. This is far from what most academicians want to do, but basically wherever you work, even at a university, there is need to know how to present, not only research papers, but yourself, your strengths. One perspective is that we sell every day, our ideas, our credibility, why someone should hire us over that other person. So having a clear message about your unique value can be useful.
For all you introverts, who just cringed at what I wrote, I am not suggesting to be out selling like a car salesman. I am suggesting that to know yourself well enough to know your strengths, your mission, your goals, to be able to articulate them in a positive way to others, whether it's through a resume, business brochure, or at a party, is a way to get more of what you want. And then to be able to clearly request from them what you want. Do you want them to hire you, buy your product or service? What benefits does the "buyer" get from you?
So, I want to provide some questions to think about:
What unique value, or combination of values, do you provide at your current job? To your family and friends?
What do you like most about yourself?
What qualities do you like most about your friends, significant other, children, pets?
What do your friends love about you?
What does your current employer like about the job you do?
And finally for fun, ask your friends what animal you remind them of, and what qualities does this animal have that your friends notice in you?
Barbara
Barbara closes her portion of the discussion:
I look at most of my work today as a seed planter. Thank you for letting me be a part of your discussion group and plant some seeds. I really enjoyed your challenging questions and learned a lot from you all. Thank you Paula for your invitation.
What impressed me the most about all of you is the incredible gifts each of you brings to the garden. I would challenge all of you to use your gifts not only at your school and work, but for yourself - to find the careers, relationships, environment, money, health you all want.
Barbara Voss
Stacey closes:
Thank you for the opportunity to share my work with you this week. It's been eye opening, thought provoking and inspirational.
It takes incredible courage just to ask the questions you've been so willing to share. And I know each of you will find the answers to your questions. Just keep digging.
Warmly,
Stacey Lane
Stacey says goodbye:
Thank you for the opportunity to be a part of your list, your community for this week. I've been impressed with your self-awareness, compassion, commitment, idealism and support for each other. As you continue on your journey, please continue to share your stories. Your network is very powerful.
I wish you clarity and success! If I can be of assistance in the future, please feel free to contact me.
Best,
Julie
Paula ends the discussion:
Gosh, is it already Friday? What a wonderful week. Speakers, subscribers, everybody did a super job of asking great questions and giving great answers. On behalf of the entire subscribership, I would like to express deep gratitude to our three wonderful speakers, Barb, Stacey and Julie. They shared very generously of their time, ideas and compassion, for which we are much in their debt. Thanks as well to those of you who asked questions and kept the discussion going. Way to go, everyone!
The next Guest Speaker Discussion will take place sometime in August or September, and then there will be one more before the end of the year. Exact dates and topics TBA. Until then, you are free to use the list in whatever manner you choose as long as it is consistent with the list's stated purpose: to share information and encouragement regarding nonacademic careers for people with graduate education in humanities, education or social science.
BTW, I heartily recommend that anyone who has not visited the WRK4US website do so. It contains a description of the list and its purpose and also contains every Guest Speaker Discussion we have ever done in the past (six a year since 2000).
Happy exploring,
Paula Foster
WRK4US list manager