Career Center :: Grad Student Home :: WRK4US :: Guest Speaker Discussions

The following Guest Speaker Discussion originally took place on WRK4US in July and August 2004. Because WRK4US has a confidentiality policy, all names and email addresses have been altered or removed, except for the moderator's and the Guest Speakers'.

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Tali Gordin-Kaviani
High School English Teacher
Santa Ana High School, Santa Ana, California
taligordin@yahoo.com

My name is Tali Gordin-Kaviani. I'm one of the panel members for the "Careers in K-12 Teaching" discussion.

I teach English full-time at Santa Ana High School in Santa Ana, California. I also teach part-time (i.e., whenever I feel like it) the Advanced Analysis and Critical Thinking course at the University of Redlands, Business Management Program, at the university's Orange County campus.

My Ph.D. is from UC, Irvine, in 18th Century British Lit. During grad school, in addition to 'TA'ing,' I also taught part-time at Saddleback Community College for four years since I had two children to support. While I was writing my dissertation, I got involved with UCI's H.O.T. (Humanities Out There) outreach program to local public schools. I taught a couple of H.O.T. workshop series at Santa Ana High School (SAHS). During the years I taught Composition for UCI, I and other TA's always complained that a lot of the incoming undergraduates came to us unable to write a decent paper. I also noticed that at the high school where I gave the workshops for H.O.T., most of the students didn't see college as a 'real' option, and some of the teachers there didn't really expect their students to go further than graduate (barely) from high school.

This was a challenge I couldn't resist! I need professional challenges, or I get bored. And frankly, I don't care about the "prestige" of being called a university professor. I need to feel like I'm doing something significant.

That summer, as I was getting ready for all the MLA madness that was to come that winter, I had lunch with the SAHS teacher in whose class I had given the workshops. She asked if I knew anyone who would be interested in teaching at the high school. It occurred to me that I was. When I told her, she literally choked on her iced tea, but managed a shocked, "Are you sure ?" Since then, I've heard and seen the same reaction repeatedly. The principal at Santa Ana didn't return my call, at first, because he thought I wasn't serious. However, once I talked him into giving me an interview, he offered me a teaching position right away.

At UCI, my dissertation chair had a mixed reaction. He was disappointed that I was setting my goals so low; he had wanted more for me and believed I could get it. However, he also admitted to benefits in my choice that were more concrete -- I wouldn't have to move my children, and my starting salary was significantly higher than if I were a beginning associate professor. Overall, though, he thought it was a waste of my intellectual talents, and told me so. On the other hand, he also told me he thought what I was doing -- going to teach at a 'disadvantaged' school, where the student population was 85% second-language learners and 95% of the families were low-income -- was admirable.

I know that at least half of the English Department at UCI thought I was nuts; a couple of grad students stopped me quietly in the parking lot and, actually looking over their shoulders, told me they wished they had the 'courage' to do what I was doing. At the first Language Arts Department meeting at SAHS, I was told to let them know 'when the drugs wore off' so they would be forewarned of when I was going to quit and go back to the university. That was in 1999.

(1) I teach the Junior Honors English classes, and although I've also taught English classes at all the other 9-12 levels, I now mostly teach Honors Juniors and College Prep (i.e., general) Seniors, since I know what both universities and junior colleges expect.

(2) I am also one of the department's two literacy coaches. This is an Academic Department Support position. My role is to make sure all the English faculty teach according to the state content standards; to assist teachers with Composition and Literature materials, information, teaching units, etc. for whichever text, literary period, or writing style they are covering; and often to create entire Composition and Literature reference packets for the department faculty. We have created the SAHS Student Writing Manual that all students are required to use, and I myself have compiled the school's Handbook of Literary Terms , which is given to every entering student, and which all students are required to have during the four years.

(3) I serve on the Santa Ana School District's Curriculum and Writing Committee. We decide on required reading texts for each grade level, write the Writing Proficiency Exam essay prompts, and define the District's writing requirements for graduating seniors.

While Administration would like me to require my students to call me Dr. Gordin-Kaviani, I find that rather silly, not to mention a real mouthful to pronounce! I tell my students to pick 'one of my names' and they can choose between Ms., Mrs., or Dr. 'Mrs. G.' and 'Dr. G.' seem to be popular choices. I do talk about what it takes to earn a Ph.D. with my students, and we discuss the financial benefits of higher education all the time. However, the only time I "pull rank" so to speak, is when we have visitors from Sacramento, various political or Department of Ed. visiting groups, or when School District 'suits' attempt to talk down to me or to my colleagues. It's amazing what flashing "That's Dr.Gordin-Kaviani" can do for you and for the cause you're trying to promote.

My colleagues and I have been working very hard over the last five years to improve the level and quality of education at our school. We are succeeding. I measure our success not by the state scores (although ours have risen every year consistently), but by the number of students we have been getting to college. We have students in such schools as UCLA, Brown, USC, all the UC campuses and Cal States, and even Yale ! They have all reached there on merit , not based on their ethnicity. We are just as proud of the many students who are going to several of the local junior colleges. This last weekend I've received e-mails from one of my Juniors from last year -- she has just found out she passed the Advanced Placement test in English Composition. Another ex-student has e-mailed me from the American Institute of Design in San Francisco. Yet another one came to visit, to tell me that he aced his Streetcar Named Desire essay because he used all the notes (both on writing analytically and the text itself) he had kept from my class. I hear from ex-students all the time -- that is the greatest reward of my job. With a Ph.D., my pay is very good, but at the end of the day, there is nothing like seeing students who were apathetic about school, and particularly English and Literature, at the beginning of the year graduate at the end of the year and give you notes thanking you for believing in them and pushing them.

Do I miss the academic writing, research and higher-level of intellectual stimulation? Yes. Sometimes I miss it a lot. I make up for some of it by writing fiction during the summer.

Do I miss teaching at a higher level? Not really. I teach my classes as I taught (and still teach) my university classes -- my expectations are high, but my classes are open to all discussions. I even use some of the same writing assignments. My classes are considered hard, but students flock to them because they consider my classes more interesting and more fun, and I treat my students like adults, not like potential delinquents (even those who are delinquents, lol).

Are there politics in high school teaching like there are at the university level? Some....Okay, lots. But that is only particularly so when, as in my case, you choose to be involved at the department support and district levels because you want to make changes. But it is often balanced, and more often superceded , by moments when a student sees something in a text you'd never seen before, or when students discover for themselves the imagery you've tried to tell them is in a work of literature. And when a Senior who never seemed interested in English comes back after graduating to tell you that he's taking a course in Chicano Literature because you really turned him on to 'cool books,' and that he decided he wants to teach -- well, there's no 'high' quite like that!

One caveat -- you are much more likely to become involved on a personal level with your students' lives. To many of our students, we are the adults they can talk to openly. There are legal responsibilities that go with that. I have had to deal with/help suicidal, abused, and depressed students almost every year. While we have school psychologists, teachers are often the first ones to whom the students tell their stories. I am happy to say that they have all graduated and are doing well. However, the journeys, for all of us, have been rollercoaster rides.

So, I invite you all to ask me anything you'd like to know about teaching at the high school level. Like I tell my students, I will tell you whatever you want to know, but I'll also tell you the unvarnished truth. Btw, yes, Virginia, there is tenure in K-12 teaching. It usually comes automatically, assuming you've had good reviews, at the start of your third credentialed year, and no, you don't have to publish to get it.

Hello, I'm Phil Giltner, and I'm a high school teacher. I teach at the Albany Academy, a boys' school established in 1813, the alma mater of Herman Melville and Andy Rooney. Like you, I sought my Ph.D. so that I could be a tenured professor, as recommended by my M.A. advisor. I never expected to be teaching high school. Yet, here I am. It's not such a bad gig, really.

In '96 I finished the work for my doctorate in Modern European/Diplomatic history from Toronto, with actual conferral of the degree in June '97. I was 33 when my wife, then-three-year-old daughter, and I moved back to the United States to put that ol' Ph.D. to work for me. Immediately, I began work as an office temp (which turned out to be a permanent position, and which carried an offer of a full-time, permanent job, but which would have entailed a move to Texas, not to speak of an explicit abandonment of academe) at a Fortune 500 in Westchester.

During this year, I converted my doctoral thesis into a monograph and got it published. It's on Amazon. It's also been favorably reviewed. A couple of articles in extremely good refereed journals, too. I did all the things that the plan book says to land a professor's slot.

The next year I lined up a couple of adjunct professor positions at some local non-selective colleges in addition to the office job. That was fun, but as you may well know, it is a real dead end. In 1998, I landed a temporary one-year full-time professor's job at a well known military academy on the banks of the Hudson River. That one-year contract was, against all expectations, renewed three times, such that I saw the freshmen of 1998 graduate in 2002. Many of them are now partaking in government funded trips to the Middle East. Teaching college for me was a blast, and I miss it very much.

That came to an end, however. By 2002, I had applied for some 400 full-time tenure-track professor positions (though I had stopped a hard count at about 280), and concluded that there comes a time at which one must stop banging one's head against a wall. So, I sent out a mass mailing to some 300 private schools from New York to Maine, enquiring whether anyone was interested in my services. A small private girls' school enthusiastically hired me, and paid for my move up the Hudson. After a year at this institution, I was moved across the street to its partner school, the Albany Academy .

The physical move, however, was perhaps the easiest part of the move. I had not understood that the move was really a change in career. It was the first time I had physically even been in a high school in over twenty years (ack!) I learned a lot about teaching in the first year teaching high school.

It's a strange feeling being back on a school schedule, but I think my temperament fits it well enough. I'm in school at about 7:45 (I live about a half hour from work), and stay after school until 4:00. I teach a handful of subjects in small classes (max.: 13, min.: 3). This year I will be teaching World History, AP European, a different elective each trimester, and public speaking. I am the advisor for two extracurricular clubs, which don't require too much time, but do require time. I am also an advisor to a group of high school boys (we have advising + a dedicated college placement counselor instead of guidance counselors). Some schools require coaching, and ours used to, but a recent change exempts me, which is good, because I never played a sport, and it would be a catastrophe.

It is no secret that teaching is one of the most satisfying jobs there is. Teaching at a private school has its advantages over public school.

You spend a lot of time helping out kids, dealing with them and their parents. Figuring out how to plan, only about a month out in advance, takes a while to get used to, but once you get the hang of it, it goes well. I require a lot of writing (my kids write 20 minutes in every class hour), so this demands a lot of time to correct and grade papers. On balance, I demand a lot from my students, and in return, I put in a good effort for them.

It isn't the same as being in college: there is no expectation that you engage in any scholarship. I think it may be true that I am underemployed, but then again, I you could say that I'm not overstretched, either. I am able to do all kinds of reading in my spare time, and have more time to engage in life and I have even reached a point where I can say I have a hobby of sorts. It is not an especially stressful life, but it is one that keeps you busy and is rewarding. Teaching high school is, I think, not a bad deal. Private school has its drawbacks, but like all things, it's a mix. I expect to keep with this for the foreseeable future.

Phil Giltner, Ph.D.

Daria Roche
High School French Teacher at a private school in California
dariaroche@sbcglobal.net

I am honored to have been chosen as a panelist this week. I have been a "lurker" on this list for just over two years, and I have gained a lot of information and perspectives from contributors (but please note that I am not related to any other subscriber with the same last name). The list has also been therapeutic for me, since many of us seem to share similar experiences in our search for careers outside the academy. I will describe below how I got to where I am, but I want to let you know upfront that I completed a Ph.D. in French Literature in 2000, and that I have accepted my first position teaching grades 9-12 beginning this fall.

Here is my condensed story: in college I studied English, French, and music, but a year abroad in Paris led me to continue my studies in French. I had no idea what to do after college, and my advisor encouraged me to apply to graduate schools. I completed a master's degree in French, which sent me back to Paris, and in 1993 I began a Ph.D. program in French Literature at Indiana University.

At Indiana I had an assistantship which required me to teach three French courses per year. For new graduate instructors in French and Italian, there is an excellent ten-day teaching orientation. Though I had jitters at first, I soon discovered that I loved teaching. It was a chance for me to be creative, have fun, and share my passion for French.

A bit of personal information is relevant here: I met my future husband in graduate school at Indiana. Although he became so embittered with the job search that he began law school as soon as he completed his Ph.D., I was still optimistic about getting an academic job. I went on the national job market for three years in a row, though each year I applied to fewer jobs, and my enthusiasm and optimism diminished. I ended up accepting a two-year position as a Visiting Lecturer in my own department at Indiana University, because I thought it would give me even more valuable teaching experience (I supervised a multi-section language course and helped lead the same ten-day teaching orientation that I had participated in when I first began). The timing of the position was ideal: it gave me a full-time job during my husband's final two years of law school.

After two more years of rejection on the tenure-track front, my bitterness was growing. But I was also excited: my husband had landed a job as an attorney in a firm in San Francisco! I began sending out letters to many of the area universities and community colleges. I also began to look seriously into private school teaching. Teaching was, after all, what held my interest the most. While I loved research, the bulk of my CV is teaching-related. And I knew that it would become increasingly difficult to find a university position, given my geographical limitation and my limited publications (and my husband helped me to be realistic: he told me that it was hard to predict if having several articles on my CV would indeed increase my chances of getting a tenure-track job, given the saturated market). I really could not give up the idea of teaching, though, and I knew that private high schools often have excellent standards and students. And, frankly, I liked the idea of being able to develop my teaching with no guilt, and the idea of not having to �publish or perish.� I discovered a placement agency that places teachers and administrators in private or independent schools in California, and I submitted my application.

It took me two years to find a private school position. I tried applying on my own to some openings in area private schools, but always to no avail. I rarely heard from my placement agency, except a few e-mails saying that they had sent my portfolio to such-and-such school for such-and-such position. In the meantime, I found other jobs: my first year in San Francisco I found positions as an adjunct at a community college and then as a lecturer at UC Davis. Last year I took a job with a company that has after-school tutoring centers. I figured that I would gain credibility with private school administrators, since I would be working with younger kids and not college students. Last winter I learned of a job fair that my placement agency was hosting in San Francisco, and I decided to go. I was hoping to meet some administrators, but my expectations for landing a teaching job were very low. I just wanted to allow people to attach a name with a face, in the hopes they would remember me in the future.

What are the odds? I had only one interview at the job fair, and I got called to visit the campus the next week. I was to teach a language class and a literature class. I planned my lessons very carefully, though I did not know what to expect from the students. In both classes, I spent the opening minutes with introductions, and I played the memory game myself until I knew all of the students' names. It turned out that this impressed everyone a great deal. I was impressed, too. The students were wonderful, very bright, could speak French well, and were strong critical thinkers. I also really liked the faculty. How did I get the job? I think learning the students' names enough to call on them during class was a big help, as were my lesson plans and my ability to build good rapport with the students and faculty. When the head of the school called to offer me the job, she said that I was the unanimous choice among faculty and students. I know, too, from talking to one of the Spanish instructors, that my teaching experience was very important to them. It is a young school, but the French program is already quite well-developed, and they could not have hired someone with little to no experience.

The school is a private, co-ed college prep (high school) that is only six years old, but it is a branch of a lower and middle school that have a very high reputation in the Bay area. My job begins this fall, so I cannot describe a typical day. Instead, I can tell you what I will be doing and why I am so thrilled to have the job: I will be teaching four different levels of French, so my prep time will be enormous this first year. But the students are great, and I will be teaching AP classes (language and literature), which I consider to be quite similar in scope to college level classes. Because the school is so young, the facilities are all quite new. I have my own room with a computer, printer, TV, VCR, and DVD players. I am so happy to be able to build my own program and to be a part of what appears to me to be a vibrant and warm community of students and faculty, which includes a few other Ph.D.'s.

Please send me your questions, and I will be sending some questions, too. I look forward to hearing from you.

Laura Adriance
Fifth and Sixth Grade Teacher in "Highly Capable" program
Meridian Park School
Shoreline, WA
ladriance@verizon.net

Sorry this introduction is late in coming! I've had some computer access problems today.

Hi, my name is Laura Adriance, and I teach fifth and sixth grades in Shoreline, Washington.
This past school year was my first year back in the classroom after a long absence. I finished my Ph.D. in Education (area of Educational Psychology) in Spring 2003 at the University of Washington. So, this is my first post-Ph.D. job, and so far so good! I've taken a little bit of a round-about route to come back to the classroom, but I think my other work and study experiences are helping me see K-12 teaching from a new perspective, and it is really interesting to be back!

My Background:

I got my master's degree (and NY state teacher certification) in elementary education way back in 1993 or so, and I taught third grade for two years at an independent school in Brooklyn. That was a terrific experience, with lots of opportunity to be creative in developing curriculum units, but I had really wanted a public school job and I found myself ready to move on after just two years.

At that point, I decided to apply to the Peace Corps, and ended up spending two years in Namibia as a "site-based teacher trainer." I lived in a rural area and visited four elementary schools regularly to do teacher workshops, demonstration lessons, and so on. My experiences in Namibia inspired me to go back to grad school. It wasn't that I wanted to become a researcher or a university professor. In fact, I didn't really think that much about what I would do after completing the Ph.D. At that time, I just knew that I was fascinated by how people learn and I wanted to study more about it.

In Namibia, I saw examples of just how important the early years are for learning, how our perceptions are shaped by our earliest experiences. I met very intelligent, dedicated teachers who could not use scissors or put together a simple, children's puzzle. They weren't accustomed to "seeing" images the way you need to see them to put together a puzzle. On the other hand, I was never able to master the motion used to pound grain into flour, something that even young girls can do there. In short, our differences intrigued me, and so I went back to school to learn more about learning.

I spent five years on my Ph.D., working part-time as a teaching assistant or research assistant the whole time. I enjoyed grad school and felt like I got a lot out of the different theories and perspectives I studied. I also really liked working in a teacher ed. program. I wrote my dissertation on teacher motivation, which gave me a chance to explore some of the frustrations I know are inherent in teaching. (I grew up with two teachers for parents, and then I married a high school English teacher, so I've heard a lot about the frustrations!) But, ultimately, the research world just didn't grab me. It's fun, in some ways, but calls for too many lonely hours in front of a computer for me. The competitive environment didn't feel like home to me.

And, I was (and am) disturbed by the disconnect between the university and the schools. I worked as a research assistant on a terrific (and well-funded) project, which included the development of new curricula in science and history, but now that the project is over there is no benefit to schools/children from that work. Maybe in the long run there will be, but that looks to me like a VERY long run, and I'm not so sure it's worth the wait. I'm not sure how the ivory tower plays a role in educational change. I'm not saying there is no role, but it seems to me that the grass roots have a lot to do with it, too. So, I decided to forego any attempt to get a job in higher ed. and I headed back to the classroom to see what I would think about teaching after so many years away from it.

Getting a K - 12 Teaching Job after a Ph.D.:

After finishing my Ph.D., I decided to look for a K-8 teaching job. (I was looking at the younger grade levels mostly because my master's degree and prior teaching experience made it easy to transfer my certification to WA state. A secondary school job would have required different certification.)

I was worried about whether anyone would hire me as a teacher with a Ph.D. in Education. I think in some states it might be harder than it was here. In WA, the state takes care of the basic teacher salaries, and districts can add a certain amount on top of that if they're able. In states where the salary system is less centralized, I imagine that schools might stay away from Ph.D.'s because of the extra expense.

As it happened, I was hired to teach in the district's "highly capable" program (sort of a gifted/talented thing). I actually have some mixed feelings about the idea of a completely self-contained HiCap program, but I decided to give it a try.

In our program, the students are supposed to be working at least one grade level ahead of their chronological age. So, what that means for me is that I was thrown into a situation where I'm expected to teach all of the subjects (including art!) on a middle school level. Yikes! I wasn't really prepared for this. It calls for being very well-rounded, which I'm really not. Sometimes I think that the Ph.D. on my resume made the hiring committee think I was more "highly capable" than I am! Some of my students are just mind-blowingly bright, and I've struggled to keep them challenged in my first year at this. But, the good news is that the work is definitely intellectually challenging and has the potential to be loads of fun!

A Day in the Life:

Busy! Fast-paced! The budget cuts to education that we've seen are reflected in the amount of planning time that teachers get. I'm sure most readers on this list have probably had enough experience with some sort of teaching to know that the quality of the students' experience is very much dependent on the quality of the teacher's preparation for the lesson/class session. Part of that involves spending time reading students' work, so that you can figure out where students are in their thinking and what they need next.

So, every spare moment, often including lunch, becomes an opportunity to read papers, prepare a lesson, answer parent e-mails, plan collaboratively with another teacher, work out logistics for sixth grade camp -- you name it! We're with the students most of the day, and when we're not, we try to do at least nine things at once.

Although I have taught before, this was a lot like having another "first year," since I was teaching at a different grade level and after a long absence from teaching. The first year of teaching is notoriously difficult, with incredibly long hours for most of us. So, I believe the hours and the stress level will go down a bit in the future, especially if I am able to stay with the same grade levels for a few years and really get familiar with the age and the curriculum.

That said, I won't beat around the bush: time is a huge challenge in teaching. For most of the year, I worked at least 10-12 hours every day, plus grading and so forth on weekends. And, it wasn't nearly enough! I think people in all kinds of careers are working terribly long hours these days in our country, and I see it as a problem. Health and fitness suffer; there is less time for children/family/any kind of social life. So, I don't mean to single out teaching on that one, but I will admit that it is a bit disheartening to work so hard at a job that is generally seen as having low status and, over the long term, low pay.

I also think most parents have no idea how many weekend hours go into those report cards, or what kind of extra effort is required to organize even one field trip, when our regular planning time is just insanely minimal. So, that can be a bit hard to swallow.

But, other than time, I really have few complaints! If you enjoy working with young people, the classroom is a fantastic place to be! Together with the students, you get to develop a culture, an atmosphere, in the classroom that reflects how you all want to be and work together. There is room for humor, for a democratic classroom style, for genuine caring and appreciation of one another's gifts.

Assuming that you show at least some respect for the curriculum you're supposed to be "covering," there can also be room for intellectual curiosity that can take individual students or the whole class on terrific journeys. This year, we ended up reading and talking a whole bunch about population issues, for instance, and it was fascinating. My teaching partner developed a science unit on architectural structures (bridges, dams, etc.), and just had a blast learning all of sorts of stuff he never knew before. This summer, I am working on a social studies unit on the Whitman massacre in WA state history, and hoping I'll find time to learn how to build a web site, so that I can have students present their work in the form of a web site with links to different primary source documents and so forth.

What I Miss about the Academic World:

To tell the truth, there really isn't much that I miss about the university setting. There is a sense of prestige or status that K-12 teaching, sadly, lacks in this country. And, that can be frustrating. I also miss having time to read and keep up on the research. I still get a couple of academic journals, but I would have to sacrifice more sleep than I'm willing to to read more than a few article titles.

I also miss the common vocabulary. It's hard to talk with other teachers about certain issues because, if we have different educational backgrounds, it can be hard to find words to explain what you're envisioning in the classroom. In grad school, I often talked with people who had taken the same courses I had, so we had common ground for conversation. (On the other hand, that can also be limiting, so I like the challenge of speaking with folks outside of that world.)

I don't miss the competitive ethos of the research world, worrying about getting published or where the next grant is going to come from or who's going to get tenure. It often felt to me as if the competition got in the way of progress, since too much time was spent worrying about who would get credit for what. I like being in a setting where collaboration tends to benefit all concerned.

Maybe I am just too interested in instant gratification, but it is so wonderful to see a student really engaged in productive work and learning! When a student really surprises me with a piece of writing, with an insightful comment during a class discussion, or with an elegant solution to a math problem, it is just the best thing in the world. In the academic setting, there was more encouragement to step back and think about pedagogy. But in the classroom, there is the opportunity to experiment and see what happens right in front of your eyes, and that is very fun!

Please feel free to ask questions about K-12 teaching in general, about teaching in a "highly capable" or gifted-type program, about elementary schools, about public vs. private schools, or anything else.

Congratulations. Question that is California specific: did you have to take any teacher preparation classes or go through a credential program beyond the Ph.D.?

Tali Gordin-Kaviani describes California courses, internships, student teaching, and certification exams:

Yes. It was jumping-through-hoops kind of stuff -- "Teaching Literature at the Secondary Level" (the professor tried to have me waived out of it -- she was my colleague and didn't want me to review her -- lol), "Theories of Secondary Education, Literacy and Something-or-other" (the professor here asked me to teach some of the sessions -- I did, to kill the boredom) etc. It takes a year, but you can do it through an internship program where you actually teach at a school and get paid a full salary while you take the classes. UCI and Cal. State Fullerton both have such programs, as do some of the universities around the Sacramento/San Fran./Davis area. You can also teach under an emergency credential while you take the classes. If you're not in an internship program, you'll have to do six weeks or one quarter (I believe) of student teaching, i.e., no pay. I did the UCI internship program.

Main thing is to remember that while you're twiddling your thumbs in those classes... they'll be over soon, and you do sometimes get something out of them. :)

You will also have to take the CBEST exam -- a general knowledge test (part multiple-choice, part essay) I thought was easy. Other exams are the PRAXIS and the Single Subject proficiency exams -- both of these were waived in my case because I had a Ph.D.

By the way, CBEST = California Basic Educational Skills Test, I do believe. When I took it in 1992, it was a piece of absolute cake.

I wonder if teacher certification exams in other states are as easy as the CBEST was?

From what I know, the basic skills test is basically the same for each state. The Illinois test was very easy. The hardest part was sitting and taking a test for three hours -- literally. I also had problems having to write the essay with no scratch paper. Of course I aced that part of the test, but having to write at a lower level than usual, without a computer, was an interesting challenge -- especially when I cannot even read my own handwriting most of the time. :-)

Daria Roche notes that certification is not needed for private/independent schools:

By the way, I do not have, nor do I plan to seek, a teaching credential (unless I'm told that I need one). That's one thing about private/independent schools: you don't need to have a credential.

I totally agree with NM and Paula. The test was a total piece of cake, and yes, the hardest part was writing essays at a level much lower than I was used to. Frankly, the level of essays the CBEST shows as "acceptable" and even as "excellent" I would not accept from my Honors students.

Laura Adriance discusses certification exams and advises that job seekers look into continuing certification requirements:

<I wonder if teacher certification exams in other states are as easy as the CBEST was?>

The test I took to get certified in NY was very easy! I think it was the NTE (National Teachers' Exam?) which most states use. California has their own, I believe (CBEST), but I don't know of any other states that do.

What is posing a serious problem for many new teachers right now is not the initial test to get certified, but the continuing certification requirements.

I don't know much about what's going on in other states, but WA recently passed this awful thing where teachers initially get what they call "residency certification," and they need to get "professional certification" within five years. And that requires actually going through some kind of program (which, of course, you have to pay for yourself and do on your own time).

Another downside to the new requirement is that, I've been told, that what you end up doing is creating a portfolio, which education master's students usually do anyway as part of most "fifth year" programs. So, most of these people have just finished doing something very similar and they're being asked to do it again right away. I don't see the logic in this!

A lot of people are really angry about this, because most new teachers are young people who have just finished a master's degree and are trying to buy a home, maybe start a family, etc. And the last thing they want to be told is that they need to go back to grad school right away. (As opposed to just collecting a certain number of "clock hours" by going to workshops that interest you, etc.)

Another alternative for us in WA is to do the NBPTS (National Board for Professional Teaching Standards) certification program. I want to do this myself, but I am hesitant because I believe it is a lot of work and pretty intense in some ways. So, I need to wait until I get to a point where I am not working so many hours at school.

The advantage of National Board (NBPTS) certification is that it is recognized in all states (I believe) and many states offer at least a small yearly stipend to teachers who hold this certification. I don't know as much about the organization as I'd like to, but I think it is really a positive effort to help solidify teaching as a "profession" by creating standards from within. I've heard it is not so easy as some other teacher certification hoops are. They do reject people's work. Although, I believe you can try again the next year by revising your portfolio, etc.

If you are thinking about getting teacher certification, I would recommend looking into the continuing certification requirements in your state. You'll want to be aware of what you'll need to do to keep that certification for more than a few years.

PK asks about administrative requirements, previous experience, and the value of the Ph.D. in obtaining private school teaching positions:

Good morning, everyone. This post is for both the discussants.

I just finished my Ph.D. in history, which was part of my effort to stay out of the public school setting. Admittedly, when I started grad school, it was to get away from the students. Now that I have two children of my own and have matured to where I can stand the thought of the teenagers, I loathe the thought of dealing with the administrative side of secondary teaching -- the objectives for the day, the meticulous documentation for every single move, and above all, the endless standardized testing (I'm in Texas where it is especially pervasive).

So what I'd like to ask the panelists is a) did either of you have any training in secondary education, i.e., teaching certification, before going to grad school; b) did my concerns enter into your consideration to teach high school full-time; and c) Phil, how do you think the administrative end differs for private school teaching? Did you find that your Ph.D. helped you in the private school market?

Thanks for your insight!

PK, Ph.D.

How do the three of you deal with classroom discipline? When I was a child in public school, I thought that the hardest part of being a teacher must be maintaining order.

ML

Heh.

I teach all boys.

Fifteen- and sixteen-year-old boys.

It's tricky, but fun. I really benefited from the classroom management seminar I took with the NYS Association of Independent Schools. It's really a technique. Because it is very very involved, I can only tell you that it is easier than it looks. You must know, however that you can loosen up over the course of a year, but never tighten up. Thus, my kids have a seating chart. I stand over them (alas, being 6'0" doesn't cut it anymore!), have a great scowl, and do my best John Houseman imitation. Though I don't mean to boast, I am very popular with the kids nevertheless. I sprinkle my sternness and high standards with a really clear sense of humor and irony.

Seriously, I expect discipline. I stop a situation immediately and never allow things to escalate before taking action. I also tell my more street-tough students that I grew up with a father who is tougher still today than any of them, so I'm not impressed with empty shows of machismo in my class. The girls love that! I actually have a great rapport with my students, and that's the key. I like them! I find that when students know what's expected of them clearly, and the expectations are consistent and enforced, they abide by them. I tell my students on the first day of classes that because I teach my classes like college classes, while they will have more freedom to discuss things in my class, they can sit where they want, etc., they also have to meet higher expectations, and that while I will be there to help them learn, I will not spoon-feed them the material like other teachers have, so if they want to learn and/or pass the class, they will have to be on the ball. They cannot make up any work they miss if they're out of class, and there is no late work accepted. So it pays to stay in class and participate. It's also more fun for them. Also, because they know I like them and respect them, it seems that they are more upset and influenced by the idea of disappointing me, or of me not respecting them anymore, then they are afraid of any disciplinary actions.

Also, I give really boring drill-and-kill grammar assignments as punishment for disrupting the class. :)) They hate those! I'm also notorious for stopping whatever we're doing and giving difficult pop quizzes at the drop of a hat, and off the top of my head, if someone disrupts the class during a lecture or a class discussion.

Our school has a tough discipline code, and a dress code. We are in a downtown area and many of our students live in gang areas, so the school is their safe haven. We actually have to tell them to go home at the end of the day. So in general, I find that my class is a place they want to be. It's actually pretty weird, in a funny way, because I've had students who don't do work, say they don't care about passing or about school, but still come to class and behave well because they just want to be there.

In the five years I've taught there, I've only sent one (!) student to the Student Relations Office (SRO, aka, discipline office), and that was for making fun of the planes crashing on the morning of 9-11. I was too pissed off to deal with him at that moment, and told him so. The next week he assumed that I would now label him as "bad", however, I told him he had a second chance to show me who he really was. He was great the rest of the year, and still comes to visit me now that he's in junior college. Otherwise, I don't really believe in sending them to the SRO -- by sending them to someone else for discipline, I'm basically saying that I can't do it, which would make it appear that I cannot control the situation -- bad move!

Tali Gordin-Kaviani comments on Phil Giltner's response and suggests a book by Peter Elbow:

Peter Elbow has a great book on "shared authority" in the classroom: how to encourage participation yet maintain control in the classroom.

I can't remember the title of it, and I've lent it to a colleague and never saw it again, but it shouldn't be hard to find.

Phil's right on the money when he writes, "...you can loosen up over the course of a year, but never tighten up." I don't have a seating chart, I'm only 5'6", and no matter how hard I scowl, I will never look like John Houseman. However, it's ditto on, "Though I don't mean to boast, I am very popular with the kids nevertheless. I sprinkle my sternness and high standards with a really clear sense of humor and irony" -- that's the key.

Laura Adriance discusses techniques of classroom management, emphasizing engaging students with the lesson:

There was also a question about discipline (or what we somewhat euphemistically call "classroom management"). I would just like to add to what the other panelists have said by mentioning the idea that a well-prepared lesson/activity is the best preventive for behavior problems.

Of course, there are some students who have particular issues that make it truly difficult for them to meet behavior expectations in school (ADD, etc.). But for the most part, if you come in with a lesson that is really tailored to your students' abilities, that has a good "hook" to get their attention at the beginning, and so forth, most students will get engaged with the lesson and that's the behavior you're looking for. They won't take time for off-task behaviors if they're really into what they're doing.

Now, having said that, I have to admit it's a lot harder than it sounds sometimes. Right now, since I teach in the "highly capable" program, I have very motivated students. But in another job (a long-term subbing position I took for a few months in rural Virginia), and in my student teaching placements in NYC, I definitely encountered students who had more reason to act out, and act out they did. But, I managed some success in getting those students involved in the class, again by looking for where their interests and the curriculum intersected, and by making it obvious that I really cared about their learning.

In rural Virginia, I found a lot of the students in my English class very responsive to Langston Hughes, for instance. Some were also excited by the interest I took in their writing. I tried to make time to give them substantial feedback and suggestions. My husband has used music lyrics and films in his English classes to get students hooked at the beginning of a unit. I'm not saying you can capture the interest of every student every time, but trying to look at the school experience from your students' perspective can go a long way. They want to be taken seriously, and they don't want to be bored -- who does?

I think that a teacher's pedagogical choices also play a huge role in discipline/behavior issues (group work vs. individual work, for instance OR actually staging a debate rather than just discussing an issue in lecture style). Generally, the more student-centered, the better, I have found. But perhaps other panelists have had different experiences? High school students might do better with lecture-style presentations. But in elementary (and middle school), I think you need to be very aware of the attention span and the need for hands-on activities.

When you plan a lesson, you try to think in terms of "what will students actually be doing during this part of the lesson?" If the answer is, they'll be sitting and listening for 40 minutes straight, you may need to do some revising of your lesson plan!

Classroom management really interests me, and I could go on forever, so I'd better stop. But one last point is that, as a teacher, you get to collaborate with your students on developing the systems you're going to use in that class. Everything from what do you do when you need to go to the bathroom (ask, or just take a pass and go?) to how do we decide who's turn it is to speak. (Will students raise hands before speaking in all situations? Is there ever room for a naturally flowing conversation?) Seating charts, consequences for misbehavior -- it's all potential fodder for discussion and teaching.

Students learn about how to get along in other work and social situations as they learn to function in school. I think this social aspect of the classroom may be more emphasized in elementary schools, but it's really a neat opportunity to continuously rethink why we do things the way we do.

At the beginning of the year, I have my students propose seating charts as practice in map-making as well as persuasive writing and speaking. Sometimes we vote on new seating arrangements, sometimes I've tried a sort of consensus model, and other times I just decide myself. This year we're had the desks in an U-shape, an E-shape, in groups of six, in groups of four -- we've tried everything. And the students have had chances to offer their opinions on each setup.

What I enjoy about it is that the students and I get a chance to talk about why some arrangements might work better than others, and then we go ahead and experiment with them. After a week or two, we pause and discuss how people like the new arrangement. It's fun, and I think the students learn from it. It's an early form of civic participation really.

It's really interesting for me to hear the other panelists' responses, too. I appreciate the good questions and the responses from everyone!

Tali Gordin-Kaviani suggests making necessary lectures interesting and discusses student circumstances that affect behavior:

Laura has been doing an amazing job in explaining and responding to all the questions posted today. Her point on well-designed lesson plans making the best tool for class management is right on target and a very crucial point. In response to some of her questions about what we, other panelists, have seen in our classrooms:

lecture is sometimes necessary in high school in order to give students outside background on some of the texts and issues we cover. However, I've found that the more animated and participatory the lectures are, the more the students are interested. For example, when we study 18 th century literature, my students really get into the bits I tell them about what the 18th century was really like -- lard for hair "gel," mercury in the cosmetiques, no bathrooms in Versailles Palace, lice and fleas in fancy hairdos and wigs, chamber pots and the true reason for beauty marks, etc. So basically, lectures are just diving boards into the "meat" of the material, and they have to be interesting! Group work and open discussions work very well, I love them, as long as the students have the base knowledge of where to start the discussion.

I'd like to add to her comment about some of the outside factors that might affect student behavior. My students deal with issues most of us never had to. Our student body is comprised of mostly immigrant students. It is not unusual for us to get high-school-aged students who had never been to any school at all. Many have parents who stopped their schooling at the elementary school level in their native countries in order to work and help support their families. As I've mentioned in a previous posting, we also have students who have family members who are gang members, and some who have parents in jail. It is not unusual for us to have students who go to school all day, and work until late at night to help support their families here, or in another country. I've had a few students -- Seniors and Juniors -- who were the sole supporters of their families and still went to school during the day. It is not an unusual year for us to have to deal with students who have attempted suicide, cut themselves, who are abused or sexually molested. These things happen not just in inner-city schools like mine, but our kids just seem to hide it less, maybe?

I've designed writing activities that allow students to explore and analyze their own world, making the writing assignments relevant to their lives. Maybe it is a result of these assignments that my students are comfortable telling

me things. I should point out that we are required by law to report cases of abuse if students tell us about it, or we suspect it -- the students know this, btw, and count on us for that.

As for the notion of students sitting straight for 40 minutes....Yeah, right! :)) How many of us can do that? Again, Laura is right on there as well.

Hello panelists --

I'm enjoying this, as always, and appreciate your time in introducing yourselves to us.

Not asking for personal specifics, I'd still like to inquire about the salary ranges and benefits packages you might find in the K-12 teaching area. One of you (Tali, I believe) mentioned that the starting salary was significantly higher than what might be expected for a beginning professor. And I believe this was at a public school. What kinds of salaries are we talking about? And do public school and private school salaries tend to differ considerably?

Thanks so much,

Phil Giltner speculates that private schools pay half of what public schools pay and also lack tenure:

I think at our private school, we pay about 50% of what public schools in the area pay, but because we do not have a union, we do not have much hard information: some of this is speculative and hearsay. Nor do we have tenure

Tali Gordin-Kaviani confirms that private school salaries are lower and explains public school pay scales:

Private schools traditionally pay less than public schools. Apparently the more exclusive "clientele" is supposed to make up for the lower pay...lol.

Public school salaries work on a step and column pay scale: step = number of years taught, and column = years of education/degree. You move columns as you earn units or degrees (so you max. your columns with a completed Ph.D.), and you move up a step with every year of teaching experience, topping off at your 20th year.

In our district, a beginning teacher with a Bachelor's degree makes in the upper 30K (step one, column one), with a Bachelor's and a year of credential classes, it goes up by a few thousands. And so on. The biggest jump is from a B.A/B.S. and a master's. The difference between ABD and completed Ph.D. is only $500/year. I began as ABD in 1999 (column four) at step two(?) because they gave me credit for some of my university and junior college teaching years, in the mid 40K's. I am now at column five (Ph.D.), step seven with a CLAD certification (see below) and now make very close to 60K/year. I do have tenure.

In CA, you need to get a CLAD certificate (since you're teaching many second-language learners). Once you get your CLAD (it's a series of tests -- most credential programs now include these in their program), you get an additional $500/year.

Laura Adriance discusses pay scales in her area:

On salaries, one of the other panelists has already done a great job explaining about steps and columns. I will just add that (at least in the three states I've taught in), public school employees' salaries are public information. If you're curious about a district near you, just go to their web site and start looking around. You can usually locate a salary scale without too much difficulty.

In my district (a suburb of Seattle), a starting teacher with just a B.A. would make about $31K or a little more. With a Ph.D. and no teaching experience, it would be about $42K, and then would go up $1,000 or so each year, I think. Our salary scale tops out at around $64K right now (that's with an M.A. + 90 or a Ph.D. and 16 years of experience), and that is a bone of contention in our current contract negotiations. (These are all base salaries that I am mentioning. People often earn more by adding on coaching or other activities, but I don't think the difference is huge.)

Incidentally, my district did not give me credit on the salary scale for university level teaching because technically it did not require teacher certification. So, I think my experience with that is different from another panelist's. I did, however, get some credit for my Peace Corps service and for teaching in an independent school.

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NM follows up with a question about the Ph.D. and hiring:

Can anyone else speak to the pay hierarchy in public schools and the Ph.D.? I have been contemplating picking up alternative certification for over five years, but one of my major concerns is being at the "high end" of the pay scale. I understand that the pay scale is based on experience and grad school credit, etc. and I am fearful that after spending the time and money to get certified no one would hire me because I would "cost" too much. Conversely, while I know that certain "wealthy" districts love to hire Ph.D.'s, I am fearful of the tough "market" out there.

Tali Gordin-Kaviani comments on Ph.D. hiring and salary:

Hiring Ph.D.'s:

That was never a problem in our school. In fact, they were far more interested in the implied prestige of having a Ph.D. on the faculty. My district is not considered a wealthy one. We're inner-city, Title One (federal funding for large percent of English learners and all the strings that go with it). So, no, you will not be turned down because they can get a cheaper candidate.

I taught at a community college for several years and I know it was an issue there. They often would hire a master's over a Ph.D. because of the money. Ironically, it has not been the case in any of the high schools I know.

Daria Roche also discusses hiring of Ph.D's and salary:

My response: Alas, I cannot really answer this question. But to add to the general discussion about salaries, etc., I was given six years' teaching experience (pretty generous, considering that of my ten years' experience, only two and a half of those were full-time) plus a stipend for the Ph.D. Also, when I was in the process of accepting my job, a friend of mine who had been in the private school system in the Bay Area for ten years, as well as the head of my placement agency, told me not to try and negotiate for higher pay.

NM responds to Tali Gordin-Kavini's comment that Ph.D.'s will not lose out to "cheaper candidates:"

Tali Gordin-Kaviani wrote:

< Hiring Ph.D.'s:
That was never a problem in our school. In fact, they were far more interested in the implied prestige of having a Ph.D. on the faculty. My district is not considered a wealthy one. We're inner-city, Title One (federal funding for large percent of English learners and all the strings that go with it.) So, no, you will not be turned down because they can get a cheaper candidate.>

Thank you. That is good to know.

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The Ph.D. Used to Market Schools and Terms of Address for Ph.D.'s

DL asks if schools advertise their Ph.D. teachers and how students address Ph.D. teachers:

Dear Panel,

Does your school, especially if it is a private one, advertise to prospective parents that its school has "X" number of Ph.D.'s working at its institution (i.e., for recruitment)?

How do your students address you -- as "Dr." or "Mrs./Mr./Miss"?

Thanks to all,

Tali Gordin-Kaviani discusses her school principal's attitude to Ph.D.'s and how students address her:

Other than me, we have one Ph.D. in Physics, one in Math, one in History, and had one other one in English (Ph.D. in Ed., though, who retired). Our public school's principal makes as much use as he can of the fact that he has Ph.D.'s on his staff, and this is one of the reasons why parents are sending their students to our school rather than the ones their kids are supposed to go to -- parents can request an inter-district transfer. It's understood that when speaking to parents, as well as to visiting committees and such, we are to introduce ourselves as "Dr."....

I do not require my students to call me "Dr." However, all of our other Ph.D.'s do, and insist on it. I've discovered, that the fact that I do not, btw, has made me more popular with the faculty. :)) Ironically, I'm the only one of all the Ph.D.'s at our school who had actually taught at the university level for any real length of time, so it actually took me a while to get beyond the fact that students cannot call me by my first name....

I give them a choice. "Dr." is fine, "Ms." or "Mrs." is fine as well. My students and I have a pact, for the poor principal's sake, that when we have "suits" visiting, they call me "Dr.," otherwise, it's their choice.

Phil Giltner responds on marketing of Ph.D.'s and terms of address:

Yes, our literature mentions how many Ph.D.'s we have. We have a rather competitive market now. However, don't think this is headline information. Rather, it's in the ad copy on our great instruction, etc.

Officially, I'm "Dr. Giltner." Unofficially, I'm "Doc" to the boys.

Laura Adriance comments on terms of address:

On what my students call me --

I don't ask my students to use "Dr." -- it just seems odd to me. I would really prefer first names, but I don't think it's policy at my school. But there is a second grade teacher at our school who has a Ph.D. and her students call her "Dr." In fact, everyone does. The only time I've used the title so far was in signing my name on a letter to our school board, but there I felt it was truly relevant. I think most parents in our program know I have a Ph.D. though. I mentioned it as part of my background info at curriculum night in October, and people talk.

Preference for University Job and Job Politics

NM asks about preferences for a university job and about job politics:

Thanks to all our guest speakers!

I have two questions:

1. If you landed a tenure job at a university, would you leave teaching high school?

2. What are the politics/admin. end of the job like?

Thanks!

NM

Tali Gordin-Kaviani states a preference for high school teaching and discusses politics on the job:

NM,

1. At this point, yes, I might seriously consider leaving a tenured position to teach at the high school level for the challenges/satisfaction it offers. My one concern would be the tenure issue, because you would not get automatic tenure at the K-12 level. It would be starting from scratch, basically. So it would be an economic decision as well, and the pay + benefits would be a serious consideration for me.

2. On the whole, if you're just teaching, the politics are very minimal, depending on the administrator. Some are power-mongering bureaucrats and like to bully new teachers, others are very welcoming and supportive. So as long as you're teaching only, it's only a matter of whether you're doing your job well and do all the record-keeping stuff that's required, and how well you can take some criticism possibly from an administrator who probably will not understand what you're trying to do. If you can communicate what you're doing, then you're ahead.

Interdepartmental politics have to do with whether you get to teach the courses you'd like to teach -- i.e., the levels you want to teach. When I was given the Junior Honors classes in my first year at the school, some people really resented it because teaching Honors and AP are considered plum assignments, and they felt I hadn't paid my dues first by teaching lower-level classes. However, when people saw that (a) I did also teach transitional classes (fresh out of ELD/ESL), not to mention how much writing I assign and grade in Honors , not to mention that I was willing to share a lot of my materials and sources with them, they changed completely.

I've heard that in other high schools there are cliques within departments, so the best thing is to stay neutral as much as possible, at least until you decide who you want to hang out with, who is helpful to you, who isn't, etc.

Since I also have department academic support duties and serve on our district's writing and curriculum committee, I deal with more than most. The politics have more to do with getting the administrator on board with the changes we're trying to implement; to diplomatically make sure teachers (especially veterans) are teaching according to the state requirements, and aren't just teaching the same old thing they've taught for 20 years; and to pass on district-mandated changes to the school site and make sure they're followed, etc.

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Phil Giltner comments on the benefits and disadvantages of university teaching and discusses politics and administration:

[NM wrote:]

<I have two questions:

1. If you landed a tenure job at a university, would you leave teaching
high school?>

This is a great question, and one that I've asked myself many times. I would certainly like to do international stuff, some research, etc. I definitely miss that. However, I don't know if I'd accept such a position at a job where I'd spend all my time banging my head against the wall. I have great kids now. I taught at a college where the kids did not really have much interest in the material or much ambition. I know a lot of people teaching at colleges who repeatedly lament about the lack of interest from their kids.

<2. What are the politics/ admin. end of the job like?>

These are really two different things. I'm no whiz at politics, so I have to spend a lot of worry and energy on it, but I do what I can. As I noted earlier, our administration end at our private school is minimal.

Daria Roche also states a preference for high school teaching:

<1. If you landed a tenure job at a university, would you leave teaching
high school?>

I have no idea how I'll feel after one or more years on the job, but currently I feel quite strongly that I would NOT leave teaching high school for a tenure-track job. There are too many things about higher ed. that bother me these days. For one, the pressure to publish cuts into teaching prep time, and I have never been able or willing to minimize my teaching prep and "wing it" in the classroom so that I could focus more on research. And I feel much more satisfaction from teaching -- both by tapping into my creative side (I love coming up with new and fun ways to teach French grammar) and by generating enthusiasm in my students and watching them have fun as they learn. It is increasingly difficult for me to see how researching French literature can benefit more than a few other scholars. I have no desire to go through the tenure process. In the French department at Indiana U. over a seven-year period, I saw at least five faculty members get rejected for tenure (and a couple more were only tenured after successful appeals), and it was devastating. Yuck.

<2. What are the politics/ admin. end of the job like?>

I honestly don't know yet. Although, if this counts as politics/admin., I'm having a really hard time getting ahold of people to find out exactly what the schedule is going to be like. It's difficult to plan my classes -- I'm afraid I'll have to do a lot of last-minute planning, just because people are on vacation now!

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Scheduling and Class Load

NM asks about the number of classes and preparation periods:

A general question: how many "periods" do you get for lesson planning?
How many classes do you teach each day?

Tali Gordin-Kaviani responds:

The usual teaching load is five classes a day + one prep period. Total of six periods.

Laura Adriance laments the lack of scheduled time for preparation:

This is a real sore spot for me! Right now we have 120 minutes of prep time (during the school day) per week in our contract. That's for elementary schools in the district. So, the students are with us from 9:05 to 3:30, and this 120 minutes per week is within that time. Of course, there is also time before school and after school, but no matter how you slice it, it's just nowhere near enough, and it is a major point of contention in our current contract negotiations.

The middle and high schools get more time than we do. And, I would not want to see any taken away from them, but it does seem unfair by comparison, and actually many middle and high school teachers have offered their support to us on that in our current contract negotiations.

As an elementary school teacher, I teach all the subjects, including art and health. I never teach the same lesson twice, as I might in a middle school with different periods of the same course. Of course, I also have many fewer papers to grade when I collect a report or essay. So, that's the trade-off. But, then again, we grade in every subject, too, so it really adds up.

This past year, I was almost always at my desk by 7:45, and I never left before 5:30 or 6:00, often staying later. Twelve-hour days were not at all unusual for me, plus grading on weekends. I do think that next year will be at least a little better since I'll have one year under my belt at this grade level and in this school and program. The first year in any position is bound to be crazy.

But I also see several very experienced teachers around me coming in on weekends and so forth. So, it is definitely worth comparing planning time across districts when you're job hunting! It can vary a lot. Look for "early release" time, if possible. That's when they release students early (or start late) one day a week (or every other week) so that teachers can have that time for prep work. (Although I think some districts may use it for professional development, which I would not want.)

EB asks if a heavy teaching load leads to burnout:

My apologies if this issue has already been covered -- this has been quite a busy discussion and I haven't been able to follow every posting!

To our panelists:

How do you feel about teaching four-five courses a day, five days a week, especially when many of those courses are different? Preparation alone in such a situation would be extremely demanding in terms of time, it would seem. I've often wondered if this kind of teaching load leads quickly to a feeling of burnout.

Thanks for your thoughts.

EB

Daria Roche explains her teaching schedule and strategies for reducing preparation:

Hi EB,

This is a good question, and I am very interested to see how it pans out for me this year, as I look at four completely different preps/classes. I haven't seen the finalized schedule yet, but since we're on some kind of modified block, I won't be teaching all four classes every day. I think at the most I'll have three, and not every day. Whew! I admit that I am quite nervous about having so many different preps/grading. But I'm hoping that the "flexibility" we've discussed already will help me out with this. [See "Making the Adjustment to K-12 Teaching."] One of the things I'm really excited about moving from college to high school is the chance to expand units and activities. So I will probably limit the new material I introduce each day in my language classes and stretch out the group work to give the kids a chance to interact more with the material. And this will help my prep time, too!

Daria

Tali Gordin-Kaviani responds that the first year is the most difficult, that the hardest task is adjusting teaching to different levels, and that collaboration with other teachers on preparation is possible:

At the public school, high school level, it's five classes a day. If you coach, then it's four + the sport -- however they may not necessarily be four-five different courses. In most cases, if you get more than one prep (i.e., more than one grade or language level), it's usually two, rarely three. This usually only happens the first or second year -- usually you end up "specializing" so to speak, in one or two grades. My first year I taught one Junior Honors class, three freshman college prep classes and one college prep sophomore -- all English/Lit. This was considered unusual and difficult by my colleagues, but it was all Lit. to me, so I didn't think much of it. Also, the three years before I taught two different levels of Composition at a local junior college and a survey Lit. course at the university, so three preps. were the norm for me. My second year I taught two Honors Juniors, three frosh c.p. Third year: two Honors Juniors, three frosh c.p.; and the last two years, since I have two periods of department support work, I teach three classes: two Honors Juniors and one Senior.

The first year is usually the hardest because you are just starting to create and amass your collection of lesson plans and curriculum units. By your second year, you already have a wealth of material you've collected, created, borrowed, etc. the year before, so your prep is much easier, although, hopefully you're trying to always stay fresh and come up with new stuff as well.

Since I teach all English/Lit., regardless of grade level, it's easier than if I were an elementary school teacher, or if I were teaching at a prep school where I might have to teach multiple subjects. Most of the prep work consists of tuning your teaching activities to the intellectual level of the age group and ability you'll be teaching. Example: In CA, three out of the four years of English include Shakespeare. In our district, Freshmen, Sophomores and Seniors all study at least one Shakespeare play (for us, Junior year is American Lit.) ninth -- Romeo and Juliet , tenth -- A Midsummer Night's Dream or Julius Caesar , twelfth -- Macbeth or Hamlet. Obviously I wouldn't be teaching Shakespeare to the ninth graders at the same level, or with the same approach, I would be teaching him to Seniors, but I do use some of the same basic material. My expectations and requirements of the students are different, clearly, even if the assignments may appear similar, e.g., a research paper or a class presentation on Elizabethan theater. A research paper on Elizabethan theater by a Senior had better be more sophisticated than a Freshman one!

I think I might have said this elsewhere, but I've adapted many of the writing assignments I've used at the university for the high school level. Works great, as long as you prepare the students sufficiently. So you're not really starting entirely from scratch. Also, most of your colleagues would probably be very supportive and helpful, and will be willing to share with you activities that have been successful for them. Some of the teachers at our school occasionally use their prep to collaborate with colleagues who have the same prep period and who teach the same grade level.

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Phil Giltner discusses his teaching methods and preparation:

My course load is heavy, but not overly burdensome. I work hard, but to be honest, I don't like being idle, so the work is very welcome. At the end of terms, I am ready, very ready, for vacation. (two weeks at Christmas! two weeks in March! Done on 16 June!)

I have three sections of the same subject, namely World History, which I've been teaching now for six years, so I don't need to reinvent the wheel all the time. I'm always looking for ideas on how to jazz it up, to create interactive lessons (debates, trials, projects, etc.), but that's not too burdensome. I'm also doing AP European, which does take a bit of time, but the truth of it is I know that subject pretty well, too, and the kids that choose to take it are really good kids -- you can count on them to keep up their end. I have an elective every trimester, but that doesn't take too much time to prep: they are in topics I know, so I only do the same homework the kids do. This year I am also starting a public speaking course, which will take up a lot of time.

I also might add that my teaching method does not require all that much preparation. Every day my kids write for 20 minutes on the previous lesson or homework assignment: the rest of the hour starts off with a discussion of the essays just written in the journals. We then find something to argue about in history (Was Machiavelli a nut? Why did he do this? What do you think of it?). When the kids are forced to participate, you only have to be an intelligent referee & coach. My overall goal is for the kids to be able to argue based on (historical) fact, whether it be in writing or on their feet. We also use up a good number of periods doing research on our various research projects: I take them to the library and show them how to find stuff. (They, of course, wish to do everything via Google. I force them to use books: they think I'm an ogre and a genius.)

We have one of those wacky six-day rotating schedules, such that my day one and day four stink with four courses back to back, but I usually have three classes per day, plus study halls. I have not mapped out my schedule for this coming year, so we'll see. I also advise two extracurricular clubs, but those don't take all that much time. I actually like study halls, because I run them as silent study halls (old John Houseman to the rescue once again), so I can do some work. My free periods are kinda funny: I don't get much done because kids come by to see me and hang out.

So, what I do to keep some sanity is I get up an hour before my family does (so, at 5:30) and work/read for an hour there. I grab an hour or two over the course of the day, & I sometimes put in an hour in the evening.

It can be a lot of work, especially when it comes to grading, but as it's history, I enjoy it so much that it's not really slavery. I've done real work before; this is not so bad. (Though how many times do you want to tell kids how to spell "its?")

Tali Gordin-Kaviani responds to Phil Giltner:

Phil's teaching style sounds very much like mine. I enjoy coming up with new discussion topics, and the kids quite often bring up their own topics as well. They do like all the side stuff, like the history of each literary period we are cover, and since I love history, it's fun for me when the class discussion and research ideas lead in that direction.

I confess to also insisting that students find material in books and academic journals as well, and not just find stuff on the internet. I actually arrange for a research field trip to the university library at some point in the year, and they get extra credit for doing research in any of the college libraries around us.

Speaking of the Internet, there are a lot of essays, as you probably know, on just about any research topic. As our students have become more technologically advanced, we've had a growing problem with plagiarism. Most of the schools and colleges here have started using a site many of you might already be familiar with. It's called Turnitin.com Students turn all essays directly to the site, which automatically checks for plagiarized sections before it sends the essays to you. Very useful!

I grade a lot of essays. My fault -- I assign a lot of essays. :)) But since I teach Lit., that's inevitable. Since my prep periods are usually filled with teachers coming in for materials, students coming in to hang out, and ex-students coming back to visit, I rarely get a free period to actually do any grading or prep work. I do quite a bit of that at home, unfortunately. Not recommended, but there it is.

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Relationships with Parents

NM asks how parents treat teachers:

How would you say most parents treat you? With respect or as if you are their "servant"? One of my other major concerns about teaching at the high school level is horror stories I have heard about parents and their unwillingness to treat you as the "expert."

Thanks!

Tali Gordin-Kaviani reveals problems with educated parents:

Not to sound mean, but the more educated the parent, the more overbearing he/she can be. The majority of our parents have tremendous respect for all of us teachers. Some of that is culturally based -- education earns respect in Latino culture. The parents who have been overbearing and a bit hard to deal with, at least in my case, have been the ones who are well-off. With them, I whip out that "That's Dr. Gordin-Kaviani, thanks." Yes, with them, the Ph.D. definitely comes in handy.

Look, bottom line, people in general will treat you as you let them treat you. Ph.D. or no Ph.D.

Daria Roche suggests parents want communication with the teacher and raises the question of how to communicate efficiently:

My response: I do not yet have experience with the parents at the school. But my previous job at an after-school tutoring center has given me very good insights into how to deal with the parents. At least, I have seen what ticks parents off: a lack of communication with the teachers. When a parent sees a bad grade on a report card, and they were never told that their child was doing poorly, they get upset. I haven't quite figured out yet how I'm going to go about opening up the proverbial lines of communication with the parents without opening myself up to constant e-mails and phone calls, but I am planning on letting them know when their child is having a hard time.

NM responds to Tali Gordin-Kaviani and asks a further question about the value of the Ph.D. in relationships with parents:

[Tali Gordin-Kaviani wrote:]

<Not to sound mean, but the more educated the parent, the more overbearing he/she can be. The majority of our parents have tremendous respect for all of us teachers. Some of that is culturally based -- education earns respect in Latino culture. The parents who have been overbearing and a bit hard to deal with, at least in my case, have been the ones who are well-off. With them, I whip out that "That's Dr. Gordin-Kaviani, thanks." Yes, with them, the Ph.D. definitely comes in handy.

Look, bottom line, people in general will treat you as you let them treat you. Ph.D. or no Ph.D.>

Thank you. You answered my implicit question plus some. And yes, of course we are treated the way we expect and allow.

One further question, does the "Dr." silence (to some extent) the overbearing parents? (For further information, my concern here has to do with a close friend that has had a very hard time dealing with "educated" parents. She teaches in a very wealthy district and has a really hard time with the "parents." Their children are "perfect" and she is an idiot (even with two master's, one of which is in Special Ed.).

I guess my question is how does the Ph.D. come in handy? The politics of dealing with parents is a giant concern of mine.

Cheers!

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NM responds to Daria Roche, seconding the importance of communication:

Daria Roche wrote:

< I do not yet have experience with the parents at the school. But my previous job at an after-school tutoring center has given me very good insights into how to deal with the parents. At least, I have seen what ticks parents off: a lack of communication with the teachers. When a parent sees a bad grade on a report card, and they were never told that their child was doing poorly, they get upset. I haven't quite figured out yet how I'm going to go about opening up the proverbial lines of communication with the parents without opening myself up to constant e-mails and phone calls, but I am planning on letting them know when their child is having a hard time.>

This is such a wonderful response. How does one deal with opening the lines of communication without a constant presence? Thank you for this because I think opening up the lines of communication is key (and essential) in all forms of teaching, and most especially when dealing with "parents," but the question really is how much is enough? Thanks
Daria!

Tali Gordin-Kaviani responds to Daria Roche and NM providing details on communication with parents:

Our school has a real problem with parents' participation. It is not for the parents' lack of desire. Most work two or even three jobs to support the family, most families have several children, and in some of the cases, our students are raised by guardians. However, on the whole, parents are always interested when I and other teachers call. The key is to also make calls when the student is doing well, not only when a student falls behind or misbehaves.

We have a system in place for setting up meetings with parents, and we have translators on staff in cases where parents do not speak English. I'm at an advantage in that I speak Spanish, so it makes conversations more direct and opens the door wider for the parents to feel welcome. Some parents are actually intimidated about approaching teachers, so it's often a good idea to make the first move.

In a number of cases we've had, students actually wanted us, and have asked us, to contact their parents so we can make the point of how important it is for the student to have a quiet space at home to do homework and study, and that the student needs time to study at home and cannot just spend the entire time at home taking care of siblings -- if the parents want the student to graduate. The words of the teacher often make a tremendous difference in helping students gain support at home for their academic pursuits.

Phil Giltner also responds to Daria Roche and NM providing details on communication with parents:

At our school, we are always in touch with our parents. We get just about 100% turnout at parents' night in October, a good number on parents' day in November. At halfway through each trimester, we write commentaries on each student and mail them out. We also do some phoning and e-mailing to keep parents up to date.

The key to dealing with parents is to ensure the parents that you love their kids, and that you have concrete examples of what they are doing or not doing. (Did not do homework on this day, this day, or this day). Have a photocopy of his "work" if it's poor. Show them a good example of another kid's work, if necessary.

This usually works. However, it's safe to say that this is reflective of being at a private school where I teach only 40-50 kids total. You can do this at this level of interaction.

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Laura Adriance provides her strategies for parent communication:

[Re NM's comment: ]

< I think opening up the lines of communication is key (and
essential) in all forms of teaching, and most especially when dealing
with 'parents," but the question really is how much is enough? >

I think the other panelists have already offered terrific responses on this. I especially want to second Tali's point about contacting parents when students do something good, not just when there's a problem.

I also would emphasize Phil's point about documenting. That's huge! It can be time-consuming, but it's well worth it. Every so often I photocopy students' essays before handing them back, or math tests, or whatever. I put them into a file for each student. Then, when parent conferences come along, or when a parent is upset about a low grade, I have something for us to look at together and discuss.

I also do anecdotal notes as much as I can (during literature circles and science, especially because those are times when I can walk around the room and listen in on what students are doing in their groups). I feel like I need to be very confident in my report card grades, so that I can field parent questions about any grade and have evidence of where it came from. It is a lot of work, but it's much better than not having an answer for a parent.

And, as already mentioned, low grades should not come as a surprise to the parent. Contacting them early is important.

E-mail is also a really interesting thing with teaching. When I used to teach third grade (1993-95), e-mail was not as common as it is now. It can be overwhelming on some days to have to deal with a lot of parent e-mails. But, overall, I think it's an improvement.

You can do things like let parents know at the beginning of the school year that you answer e-mails once per day and no more than that, etc. For teachers of the youngest grades it may be a different story, but by fifth and sixth grade parents have mostly gotten over their separation anxiety. :)

Laura

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Tali Gordin-Kaviani responds to NM's question about the value of the Ph.D. in relationships with parents, noting its benefits:

NM,

Yes, the Ph.D. comes in very handy when the need arises to manage overbearing parents. It may not silence them -- you don't want silence, you want dialogue -- but it makes them FAR more likely to listen to you with a much more open mind. That is, after all, your goal -- to make them listen. Remember, they may think they are the experts on their child, but you are the expert in your classroom and on how that child behaves and performs in your classroom. And coming from a Dr., yes those words carry more weight.

In some sense, F. Scott Fitzgerald will always be right, "The rich are different than you and me," but the rich also know the value of a Ph.D., and they also know that, ultimately, you can always find work elsewhere so they can't treat you like a "servant." Their taxes can pay for your salary as you help their child in high school, or it can pay your salary while you rest on your tenure at a university and their child is taught by an assistant. :))) Most people don't know the whole MLA insanity and how hard it is to get a tenure-track university position. They just assume you can get it anytime -- i.e., you're not a "starving teacher" they can bully. Doesn't hurt to point out to such parents that you've taught at the university level and therefore know first-hand what universities expect from incoming undergrads. Suddenly you'll be their confidant and best ally.... Diplomacy at its most basic. :)

Laura Adriance responds to the question about the Ph.D. and parents and comments on relationships with parents in general:

I have had very good experiences with parents at this particular school so far. My husband has had some good and some bad at the high school, but mostly good, I think. It can actually be more distressing to deal with parents who just don't take responsibility, don't support their children in their studies, aren't responsive to requests to meet, etc.

I think there's a lot that teachers can do right at the beginning of the school year to get parents on board. Good communication can go a long way. Of course, there will always be a few bad apples who are just looking for someone to blame, but that's probably true in any job.

Having a Ph.D. certainly won't hurt in terms of getting respect from parents. The parents in my program are mostly pretty well-educated themselves, so it doesn't particularly set me apart from them, but I think it may be helping me a little.

Hope this is helpful!

Laura

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Personal Relations and Ethos

NM asks about the personal and political atmosphere in K-12 teaching:

Thanks to everyone for answering my previous questions about leaving a tenure position and the politics/admin. end of K-12 teaching. I have a further question inspired by Daria's response. What is the /ethos/ of K-12 teaching like? I have a very negative opinion on "academe" becausof the "ethos" and personal relations I have encountered. I am just wondering if people backstab, etc. to a ridiculous degree? Whilecliques will always be around, are people generally supportive? Friendly? Or are there real "politics" as one would encounter in a highly competitive environment?

(As an aside, my general response to people who ask me if I am going to be a professor now that I am a Ph.D. tends to be, "They are all way too neurotic, even for neurotic me.")

Daria Roche reports that her experiences have been positive:

My response: so far everyone I have encountered has been extremely supportive and friendly. I know that my fellow language teachers are out to "protect" me to a certain extent -- one of them told me that she wouldn't allow the school to ask me to take on any clubs with a high time commitment during my first year.... Also, the previous French teacher advocated very strongly to get them to hire someone else to teach at least one class, so that I wouldn't have FIVE different preps (I still can't believe my good luck, too, at finding a full-time French position with five different levels... so far!!)

Tali Gordin-Kaviani responds that her colleagues are generally friendly and supportive:

The ethos of the Composition department and the English department at UCI, at least for me, was rather pleasant, although I know not everyone had the same experience. My toughest competition has always been myself, and I rarely cared about what others were doing to the point that I felt I had to compete with them. I was interested in their work out of intellectual curiosity, that's all. I think in that, I was not that common, in that I didn't fall into the whole competitive atmosphere "academe" seems to foster with so much relish.

Our department is very friendly and supportive. As is the faculty of the school in general. Five years ago, when I first started at Santa Ana High School, the department, although cohesive, was rather cliquish and I noticed that many of the teachers, the older ones in particular, were overprotective of their materials, lesson plans, etc. They were rather suspicious of the idea of collaboration I'd brought with me from the UCI Composition department The younger ones were more than happy to collaborate and discuss. It didn't take long for the veterans to begin to want to see my curriculum units, outside materials, and so on when they saw I was really happy to share with them, and I wasn't disrespecting them by flashing my Ph.D. around. We newer, younger teachers collaborated from the beginning, although you'll find that you will have a lot more "stuff" about the texts than most since you've done research or have written papers on so many works of literature. In the last couple of years we have been working on establishing collaborative groups throughout the whole department -- whether by grade or language level. While we still have a few who balk at the process, it's great overall.

Phil Giltner comments that leadership is important in producing camaraderie:

Like any group of people, we have cliques: there are jockish types, political types, bookish types. However, I find that we have a pretty solid camaraderie among ourselves. This is a reflection of good leadership. We are currently transitioning between headmasters (entering the second year of a new one) and it takes some time for malcontents and people from the old regime to cycle through. The new leadership moving through is quite good, is focused on being an institution of quality teaching. We are launching a number of new initiatives, and have an enthusiastic board of trustees.

All this is a roundabout way of saying that we have a good esprit de corps among us at our school, and a great majority (maybe 80%?) are very proud of being great teachers for great kids. This is not BS.

Laura Adriance answers that her experiences have been positive and raises concerns about politics in a broader sense:

Hi NM,

NM wrote:

<While cliques will always be around, are people generally supportive? Friendly?>

I can echo the statements of the other panelists and say that I have had very positive experiences with the atmosphere and with co-workers in schools. When I taught at a private school in NY, I was particularly impressed with how well they support their new and beginning teachers. And really it makes sense for them to do so. A private school's existence depends on attracting new customers, and you're only as strong as your weakest link. So, they were very supportive and I learned a ton there!

I've also had mainly good experiences in public schools, although as someone else mentioned, I have also encountered a few teachers who don't want to share materials, etc. But, I think that if you approach everyone with enthusiasm and a real desire to do whatever it takes to make the school a good place to be -- well, people will be drawn to that, and collaboration can be fun.

<Or are there real "politics" as one would encounter in a highly
competitive environment?>

I may be thinking of the word "politics" in a different sense here, but for me, schools are a lot about politics. I don't mean power struggles within departments or that sort of thing, though, so much as questions of how schools are governed. Who makes decisions and who has input and all that. This stuff really fascinates me, and is actually part of why I've returned to the classroom (and also why I might leave again before too long).

There are "politics" in the sense of unions and school boards, but to me that's actually a plus. As the daughter of two public school teachers, I grew up around issues of school governance. I can remember my father being on strike and how difficult that was, and scary to a little girl.

Since I am still new in this district (and I don't have a "continuing" contract yet), I have not yet gotten too involved in these kinds of politics, but I think I am headed that way. Many people have a lot of criticisms of teachers' unions, and I have often criticized them myself. I would like to see some of what the unions do change.

But, ultimately, I think I am beginning to see union activity as basically an opportunity to advocate for kids. I think that teachers' working conditions, and to some extent salaries, are closely tied to the kind of experiences that students have in schools. So, when I see things going downhill for teachers, I think that bodes ill for students of the future. And, it's usually worst for children from low-income neighborhoods.

I know that a lot of teachers actually avoid this political activism side of teaching, but I look forward to it. It's a direction that you can take if you choose to get involved.

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Social Status and Identity

NM asks if panelists have struggled with loss of identity and social status:

I am also wondering if you have had any struggles with being a "schoolteacher?" Our society does not tend to value elementary/high school teachers as compared to "professors" and I am just wondering how this has impacted your experiences? (Of course many high school teachers make more money than most social science and humanities professors.) I guess what I am wondering is if you have had any "identity" issues due to the typical expectations that tend to follow being a Dr.?

Thanks!

NM

Daria Roche reports mixed feelings:

My response: God, yes! In fact, last week at a meeting with my husband and a financial planner (don't ask!), I bristled on the inside when he said I was a "teacher" (not my husband -- the financial planner). And when I was working at the after-school tutoring center last year, I had a dream once that my colleagues and I were working at a laundromat where we also prepared sandwiches. That's how hard it was for me to swallow the fact that I could no longer identify as being a "professor." I still struggle with this, although if I think about it rationally, I am perfectly! happy with where I am.

Tali Gordin-Kaviani reports no identity crisis and that people appreciate your career change:

Nope, no identity crisis. But then, I chose high school over academe. I wanted to work with this age group. I didn't get there by default. I'm interested in what the rest of the panel says.

Besides, you'll have so many people tell you what an amazing person you are for leaving the prestige of university teaching for the "real trenches" of education, that you'll feel like a saint in no time at all. :)

Phil Giltner responds to the question about social status:

[NM wrote:]

<I am also wondering if you have had any struggles with being a "school
teacher?" Our society does not tend to value elementary/high school
teachers as compared to "professors" and I am just wondering how this....>

The answer to this is, "Yes." The solution to it, however, is to be objective and not judge yourself by how society judges others. I don't know about you, but as a Ph.D. in European history, I never really felt like an average American. ;-)

Laura Adriance responds that she feels anger over low social status and discusses positive ways to use her anger:

Yes, I have definitely had and continue to have "identity issues." Or, maybe I'm just still not sure what I want to be when I grow up! The low status of teaching in this country is something that I feel keenly. But, I think this also has to do with growing up with parents who were teachers in a somewhat snobby town. I felt hurt about this even as a kid, so I guess I came into it with a chip on my shoulder.

Now, the challenge for me is to find a productive way to use my anger. That's why union activity interests me. I am also using part of my summer vacation to do some volunteer work with a non-profit organization that has an education-related mission. (My interest in finding work with a non-profit organization is actually what brought me to this list!)

At any rate, just a different spin on the idea of "politics" in teaching. For some of us, the choice to teach is a political decision in a way, and the work may include an opportunity to really connect one's belief system with one's livelihood. I like that about it.

Laura

NM thanks panelists for answers to all her questions:

Thanks everyone for such good answers! I have been so hesitant about
picking up alternative certification., but now I am thinking it is the right path
for me.

Cheers.

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Job Search Strategies

NM asks about personal contacts in job hunting:

Speaking of which [a difficult job market], to what extent did personal contacts help you get
your current job?

Tali Gordin-Kaviani discusses personal contacts in hiring:

No personal contacts were used in my hiring.:) My resume, my experience, and how I answered questions in the interview helped.

It's not so much that you need to know someone, but that like in anything else, if someone can say they've seen you teach, you're that much ahead of the game. Having said that, it is not what is going to get you the job. Yes, my school has hired a teacher I recommended because I'd observed him and listened to him during a credential class, but we've also hired another teacher based on her presentation during the interview and her resume. The only difference was that she was asked to do a demonstration of sorts, whereas in his case, the administrators took my word for his classroom ability. Both are excellent teachers.

Daria Roche comments on her personal experience with contacts:

[NM asked:]

My response: I guess it was the "personal contact" of my placement agency.

Laura Adriance discusses her experience in the job search and suggests considering positions in "gifted" programs:

I didn't know anyone in the district that hired me. I just put out lots of applications and went to interviews, and this apparently looked like a good fit to the folks who interviewed me.

Incidentally, my principal told me that they actually have trouble hiring teachers for the "highly capable/gifted ed." positions. He thinks some folks are a little intimidated by the parents and the pressure for high academic standards. Gifted ed. might be a good option for a Ph.D. looking to try K-12 teaching though, since you've really already proven yourself capable in the academic realm.

SB asks for advice about finding jobs:

It sounds as though the panelists found their positions in various ways (mass mailing, job fair, etc.), but I was wondering whether they've culled any general lessons and could give any advice about finding teaching jobs.

Thanks,
SB

Phil Giltner reports that he's gotten his jobs through mass mailings:

Well, the two real jobs I've gotten after the Ph.D. have been through mass mailings. There's a lot of looking up with that, but it worked for me.

Tali Gordin-Kaviani suggests using Human Resources, taking applications directly to principals, and substitute teaching:

I actually just called the school and asked to talk to the principal. I told him I heard he had openings and told him I was interested. Most districts, at least in CA, but I'm pretty sure it's true for other states as well, have a job-line phone number and/or a web site. I've found, from talking with other teachers as well, that your best bet is calling the Human Resources office of the district where you want to teach, and asking about open or opening teaching positions. When you fill out the paperwork for an opening, make two copies. While you will be turning one in to Human Resources, send or hand carry another set (application, resume, personal essays they require) directly to the principal of the school in which you're interested -- this is the one that will get you noticed. The one in HR might sit there, while the principal is more likely to call the applicants whose papers are on his desk.

One option that has worked for some people is to begin as a substitute. In our districts, principals tend to offer jobs to subs we really like. Plus, you'll be making money while you're looking or taking credential courses, or finishing your dissertation. You don't need a credential to substitute teach, even long-term, but you need to take the CBEST exam.

Daria Roche suggests making appointments to meet with headmasters or administrative staff:

I was given some advice by a couple of people who had both successfully found jobs in Bay area private schools: hand in your cover letter and CV in person. See if you can make some appointments to meet with headmasters in order to introduce yourself and give them a chance to associate YOU with your resume. At the very least, ingratiate yourself with the administrative staff. This way they can all see that you are a real person who is interested in teaching, is able and willing to work with younger kids, etc. A friend of mine told me that a typical belief about Ph.D.'s is that we're all stiff, unable to come down from "academe-speak," and all about research and not much about teaching. The administrators will be impressed to see that we can actually relate to colleagues and kids, and that we're very interested in teaching. Even if the schools you visit don't have openings, the administrators talk to those in other schools. They just might send your name along to a friend in another school!

aria

P.S. I must add, with a bit of shame, that though my intentions were to visit several schools in the area, I only made it to one, and the headmaster was not available. I did speak to him on the phone later, but it did not lead to anything (the position was in English, and most of my experience is in French).

Laura Adriance comments on differences between public and private schools:

I think the job hunt is actually a little different for public vs. private schools. The private school job I had years ago, I practically just fell into. My cooperating teacher (the teacher in whose classroom I did student teaching) knew people at the school and recommended I apply. I think her recommendation probably went a long way. At the time, I really wanted a public school job, but was terrified of unemployment, so when I got the offer, I took it.

For public school jobs, it's not hard to find out the procedures because almost all districts seem to have web sites these days. I just spent a lot of time going to one district web site after another, downloading applications, etc.

In my state (WA) some districts are starting to use a sort of shared application packet so that applicants don't have to fill out the same info 19 different times for 19 different districts. Unfortunately, it's not that widely used (yet).

I think Tali also mentioned substitute teaching. I highly recommend trying it! I've done quite a bit of it, and I think it is not only a great way to get known in a school (and maybe eventually get hired), it is also a great way to find out for yourself if teaching is really for you.

During college, I did substitute teaching during the January break and in late May-June. (That was in a state that would take subs who hadn't quite finished a B.A. yet. Requirements differ a great deal from state to state.) Subbing helped me figure out whether or not I wanted to teach, and also at what level. You can do high school, middle school, etc. as a sub and just feel it out and see how you like it.

Laura

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TR asks Phil Giltner for more detailed advice about mass mailing:

Phil--
Could you tell me/us a bit more about your mass mailing? Specifically, I was wondering if you sent out a generic cover letter and resume or if you crafted individual letters to each of the schools you applied to. If the latter, about how much effort did you put into a given letter, was it say comparable to the effort one puts into a cover letter for a college job opening?

Thanks,

TR

Phil Giltner gives details of his mass mailing procedure:

Form letters are easy to do in practically every word processor, so you can get a semi-personalized letter, and send them off.

Went to the library, and got 1 of the guidebooks to prep schools (name escapes me at the moment: Peterson's?), and typed the names and addresses of prep schools in the Northeast into my computer (NY east), paying careful attention to the needs of a mailing list (proper formats require tabs and carriage returns, etc).

I then wrote a form letter explaining who I am (was?), saying that I was interested in finding out if there were opportunities at your school: put codes in for the address and the school in the body of the letter (for example, a sentence like, "I am very interested in learning whether there are any opportunities at >>yourschool<<," where the word processor would stick in the name of the school instead of "yourschool."

Addressed my letters to the headmaster, on the assumption that information in the guide books is not up to date. This might have been a mistake: probably better to put in the name of the headmaster as indicated in the guidebook.

Made 300 copies of my vita, and attached it. Printed out corresponding envelopes.

The whole process takes a bit of time, but after all, it's for a good cause ;-)

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TR asks if independent schools have hiring cycles and seeks advice about taking up an adjunct position while job hunting:

To the panel participants:

How cyclical is the hiring cycle for prep school jobs? My understanding is that there is a hiring season running from about April-June, and that it would not make sense to spend much time looking for a job until spring rolls around, but to instead use the interim period to perhaps prepare myself to be a stronger candidate or investigate other post- academic career options.

Similarly, I have an opportunity to teach a couple of intro college courses as an adjunct this coming fall semester. I'm wondering if I should take the work, given my interest in prep school teaching. I have buckets of teaching experience at the college level already and teaching the courses would take time and of course generate only a few thousand dollars in income. It would also tie me down physically to the [X] area into mid-December and one of my assets is my ability to relocate anywhere almost ASAP.

On the other hand, it might be wise to take the work, especially if the hiring season does not really gear up until the spring of 2005. If I don't take these courses I'd go on the market (presumably this spring) not having taught since the spring of 2004, and I'd probably be unemployed when I was applying for jobs. I wondered if any of the panelists had a sense of how problematic it would be to be an applicant in the spring of 2005 who had not done any teaching since the spring of 2004 and was currently unemployed.

FYI, my background is in European and world history and I'd like to teach at the high school level.

Thanks,

TR

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Daria Roche responds to TR with suggestions about placement agencies and substitute teaching:

Hi TR,

Here are some suggestions, for what they're worth, given my relative inexperience in private schools in relation to the other panelists. Since you are able and willing to move out of your region, you should consider submitting an application to Carney Sandoe or another placement agency. It would be great to get that completed soon (it can take awhile to get through all of the questions, etc.), and then consider attending the National Association of Independent Schools annual conference, during which there are many job interviews. Carney Sandoe should also have their own job fairs. Btw, I just came across an old Chronicle of Higher Ed. article about secondary school teaching.

I would love to hear what others have to say about the different placement agencies, but I was advised by several people in the SF Bay area who are in the private school industry to get hooked up with Carney Sandoe. I submitted an application to them, but they rejected me unless I would open up my search beyond my geographical region. I ended up using Cal-West Educators (which was formerly Teachers on Reserve), and they finally worked for me. They place people in California only, by the way. But even for those who want to limit their search to a specific geographical region, I was told to say that I would go anywhere, get the interview experience, and hold out for a job in my region when it came around. Nothing says that you have to accept any job offer -- you can be choosy.

Another couple of things to think about are doing some substitution (perhaps it would not be feasible with your teaching schedule, if you decide to teach the classes you mentioned, but look into it anyway), as someone else suggested; and remember that there can be last-minute replacement openings due to a number of factors (pregnancy, illness, etc.).

I look forward to the other panelists' responses.

Daria

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Laura Adriance responds to TR with comments on subbing and suggestions about overseas teaching:

I think Daria gave great suggestions in response to this question. I agree that it wouldn't hurt to get started on your search right away, especially if you are going to use a placement agency. And people do leave midyear for a number of reasons (illness, pregnancy, etc.), so you just might get something sooner than you think.

Subbing is also a great idea. Private schools often have a few subs that they know well and use a lot, but if you sign up right away to sub, you might get some chances to work and get to know the settings. Even if you're planning to look at private schools only, you could also still sub in public schools to earn more money and work more regularly if you need to. It would also be great experience.

One thing that hasn't come up yet in this discussion is teaching overseas. I don't know whether you're interested in going abroad (American schools or Department of Defense schools), but there are also agencies that help with those placements, and you can sign up with those anytime. But I don't know whether they take folks who don't yet have any K-12 teaching experience in the US. Maybe other panelists know about that? Might be worth looking if you're interested.

My husband and I looked into teaching overseas for awhile, but haven't actually done it. My memory is drawing a blank on the names of the major agencies (an alphabet soup of acronyms), but they wouldn't be hard to find online. And Department of Defense has their own (rather involved) process. Interesting stuff though! We had a fascinating interview with a representative from an American-style school in the Middle East. They love teachers with Ph.D.'s, and they pay big bucks. Of course, there's a lot to think about with living in the Middle East right now, but ....

Good luck, TR!

Laura

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Phil Giltner reports that independent schools generally hire in the spring:

As far as I know, the hiring season is indeed in the spring. Schools know their staffing needs by mid spring, and then go about hiring. This may well vary depending on the size of schools and their ability to improvise for a year.

I think that doing something to pay the bills until next September (i.e., '05) is a good idea, while you position yourself to be a better applicant for next year.

Good luck.

pg

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AF discusses placement agencies and alternative strategies:

Hi All,

In response to TR's question about head hunting agencies -- I'm currently finishing my Ph.D. in English at [Y University] and have been looking into teaching in private high schools for the past year or so.

I applied to Carney Sandoe this past spring and they turned me down as a candidate because I didn't have teaching experience in private schools. About the same time, I met someone who applied and was similarly rejected -- unlike me, he had his Ph.D. in hand, a master's in education, had taught at Boston Public for a few years, and had substituted in private schools. I'd be curious to hear what other people have to say about their experience with other independent school search agencies.

I and others I have spoken to have had more success looking at the National Association of Independent Schools web site ( www.nais.org ) and the sites of regional and state associations. My friend who had bad luck with Carney Sandoe eventually found a job (in the [X] area in fact) this way. I have been told that going to the association conferences is very beneficial.

I haven't found a job yet -- but I only applied to a few choice jobs this year. I plan to put out a much wider net next year, using the association sites and something along the lines of the "mass mailing" that worked for Phil. One piece of advice that a friend gave me about sending resumes to schools is that schools like to hear that candidates are keyed in to what makes their school special -- that applicants know the mission and philosophy of their school and are a "good fit." I put several sentences in my cover letters which mention interest in specific characteristics of a school (aspects of the curriculum, philosophy, extracurricular activities, etc.). This takes a lot of time, admittedly, but I've been told it's very important.

AF

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Making the Adjustment to K-12 Teaching

KR asks about adjustments in teaching and personal relationships when transitioning to K-12 teaching:

Hi,

I'd like to ask the panelists to elaborate on the challenges, strategies and other issues they faced adjusting from teaching university level students (adults) to teaching children and teenagers. I'm interested both in curriculum, pace, and the material introduced as well as the side of relating to and working with younger people.

Thanks,

KR

Phil Giltner discusses the role of the high school teacher:

This is a great question. Thanks for asking. It is strange, in part, because 15-year-olds and up are already physically closer to adults than you might expect, yet mentally, they are not necessarily there yet. You must be gentle with them. Boys and girls are to be treated differently: especially at this age.

A million things come to mind. First off, it is easy to forget that, as a high school teacher, you are often the first person to mention certain things to them that you forget are not actually common knowledge. This happens a lot in history, I think, because so much of our "common knowledge" is about history. Accordingly, they might know something about Hitler, but it's probably superficial. They probably know nothing about Frederick the Great, or the French Revolution, or Machiavelli. You are the gateway to a wider world for these kids, and you have an obligation to make it relevant, interesting, and lasting. That's a big duty. It's also fun.

Next I would add, as others have implied in another context, that you might well be the first adult that these kids are going to connect to on an intellectual and interpersonal level. Again, this carries responsibility. You are 'modeling' in everything you do. You have to play-act to be the kind of person that you think this kid should want to be. You are, believe it or not (ready or not!), a form of inspiration.

All of this goes to say that being a high school teacher is a lot different from being a professor. It's a bigger duty, not just to these kids, but to society, too.

Naturally, not every kid is going to click on this level. Some do, but they will only rarely admit it to you. When they do, you are walking on air: there's nothing like a stunningly admirable kid who gets only B's telling you that you are the best teacher he's ever had, believe me. Other kids will be insatiable on the whole being intellectual kids. Take Mike, for example. Mike is a too bright kid full of swagger, who is a pain in the ass for many kids. Over the course of tenth grade, he discovered in my class the joy of arguing in history. Just before summer break, he loaned me his copy of Charles Freeman's Closing of the Western Mind , and asked me to give him a series of essay questions on it that he could work on this summer.

If you really show a kid that you care about him, you can reach even the most unacademic kid. Music, sports, hobbies, movies, macs, and politics have all served me as points of entry to get to know all my kids on some level. I enjoy getting to know them, and they can see it.

There is nothing at all like a tenth grader.

hth

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Tali Gordin-Kaviani discusses similarities and differences between college and high school teaching:

I teach high school. I found that it didn't take much adjusting at all. Undergrads are teenagers in many ways still. :)) However, if you teach the two lower grade levels -- ninth and tenth, you have to adjust the level of the material to their age. Obviously you wouldn't be discussing in detail the sexual metaphors in Romeo and Juliet when you're teaching the play. I say "in detail" because you can show them it's there, and let them investigate it, but you have to temper your diction, and always remember that (a) they're 14-15, so they'll love it; but (b) they might discuss it with their parents, so you can't get too explicit; and (c) you've got a school board and a principal to answer to if the parents get upset.

On the whole, I've found that students are excited when you tell them that they're learning what you've taught to college students. However, you cannot, in most cases, expect the same level of analysis or writing ability. Although, there will be students who will pleasantly surprise you.

Sad to say, but it didn't take me much adjustment to get used to all the grading and teaching five classes because I was already used to it, having been teaching at the community college and at the university at the same time, to make enough to support two children. Generally, though, you're talking about changing from teaching maybe two courses at the university, many TA's only teach one, to teaching five classes of possibly 40 students (in a public school, at the high school level). Honors or AP classes have about half that many students per class. You could possibly be teaching more than one level -- ninth, tenth, eleventh or twelfth graders, and in schools like the one where I teach, you could also be teaching different levels as far as English acquisition -- ELD (aka ESL), Transitional, College Prep ("regular") or Honors/AP. It all depends on what you're assigned.

The most apparently limiting change of all is that states now have Writing and Reading Content Standards that must be met. However, if you look at them, you'll see that to those of us who have a Ph.D., the requirements are, well, to put it in students' discourse, "Well, DUH!!" The Content Standards require that teachers teach textual analysis, critical writing, etc. To many veteran teachers, these requirements are not that easy to satisfy. I've been giving workshops at our school for the last couple of years on how to teach and how to write textual analysis and critical papers.

e high school level, you are bound by a curriculum that is set by a school district as well as a department. There are some texts you must teach. However, you have an additional "Recommended" list from which to pick, but it is very difficult to bring in a novel, for example, that has not been approved by the school board. The way around it is to have it on your "Outside Reading" list from which students can pick novels to read on their own. You cannot make your own reading list for classroom teaching, but you can make your own list for "Outside Reading." Having said that, I found that the list of "Recommended" books in our district is quite extensive and pretty good. That's one of the reasons I agreed to be on the district's Curriculum and Writing Committee. :)) We're the ones who decide what's on the list.

In the final accounting, however, the real killer is the number of papers you have to grade. I assign a lot of essays, so I'm grading perpetually throughout the year. Unfortunately, there are no TA's to help you grade in K-12, unless you are training a student teacher, or you pay someone out of your own pocket.

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Daria Roche responds on adjustments, introducing the subject of flexibility of syllabi:

I really like Tali's response to this question. So far I'm planning on making few adjustments from college age to high school kids -- I always used lots of student-centered instruction and group work. I do know, however, that I have to consider the literature much more carefully for content at the high school level. For instance, I probably won't be teaching The Lover by Marguerite Duras anytime soon. And when I show films, I'll also have to be wary of sexually explicit content, etc. But I do plan to maintain high standards (it is a private school, after all, and the parents are looking for their kids to work hard). That said, my colleagues have told me that I have to be flexible -- sometimes you'll have to stretch out a unit over more days than you originally planned, because the students have a hard time with it. I can't quite decide if I'll like this flexibility or if it will be more stressful for me, since I'm used to having a complete, detailed syllabus that never changes....

Daria

Tali Gordin-Kaviani comments on the subject of flexibility:

Daria,

I suspect you might end up liking the flexibility of not having a set time schedule for teaching a particular text. Sometimes students will find things in the text that they really connect to, or really intrigue them and you find yourself wanting to give them the extra time to explore. To give you specific examples, this happens to me with my Honors/AP Juniors every time I teach The Great Gatsby and A Streetcar Named Desire. Once they start discovering and analyzing the text, the students are just hooked on these texts and aren't quite ready to give them up. My College Prep Seniors seems to get hooked on Sir Gawain and The Green Knight for some reason, and they love "The Wife of Bath's Tale" from The Canterbury Tales . We get into great discussions on gender roles, the chivalric ideal versus the reality of human nature, you name it. This past year, my Seniors were totally "into" Beowulf and the concept of the epic hero, as well as Norse myths (I introduced them to those to give them an idea of who the Geats and the Danes were -- it may be Anglo-Saxon poetry, but it's a story about Vikings, so...), and the whole issue of acculturated translations.

It's so exciting when students get interested in a text and beyond the text that it's just too tempting to let them run with it. We do catch up to the rest of the syllabus, even if it is a push, and by then they've gotten key concepts and motifs (e.g., epic journey, Aristotelian tragedy, Medieval Romance) down solid, so the knowledge transfers and they're able to detect the influence of these motifs or genres in other texts.

If there is one word to characterize K-12 teaching, then Daria's colleagues hit it right on -- FLEXIBILITY. If you're not flexible, you won't survive.

Daria Roche responds to Tali Gordin-Kaviani and asks for advice on course and lesson planning:

Thank you, Tali! That is really encouraging. I have a feeling I'll like the flexibility, too, but at the moment I'd like to get my courses planned so I'll feel more comfortable heading into the fall. Btw, I have a question for the other panelists: how do you structure your syllabi before going into the year? Any other thoughts or suggestions on course and lesson planning?

Thanks,

Daria

Tali Gordin-Kaviani answers Daria Roche's questions about course and lesson planning:

I have curriculum units and a general course syllabus. The dates on the syllabus are flexible, and I usually plan by six- week periods (grading periods). My department has decided to have all grade-level teachers work on the same part of the curriculum at the same time -- part of my job as literacy coach is to work with the one other literacy coach to get feedback from teachers and ultimately come up with one curriculum map for the entire school year. There is some room for flexibility, and obviously the teachers can use their own material for each of the texts specified for the semester.

The reason we do this, other than to make sure that all our students get equitable education and master the required content standards, is that we have substantial class changes and migrations at the semester break. Schedules change because of sports, some classes are only semester long, and some students need to be transferred from one language level to another.

What used to happen is that a student would cover certain texts with one teacher in his first semester, then end up covering the same texts the following semester with the other teacher because teachers were teaching required novels or short stories at different times. Our new collaboration groups and department curriculum mapping prevents this from happening. We have a few dissenters on the staff, but the majority are very happy with it -- especially since the literacy coaches can be tapped for curriculum units whenever anyone needs one.... :)) I'll be happy to attach a sample curriculum map if anyone is interested.

Laura Adriance answers the initial question about adjustments and comments on flexibility:

Great question. Since I teach elementary school, my take on this might be irrelevant if you're looking at high school. But, I just wanted to second Tali's comments about flexibility. In my experience, too, flexibility is truly vital, but it is also part of what makes teaching fun!

At times I have been surprised by the interest that my students take in a particular unit, or even in a topic I wasn't particularly planning to spend time on at all! And it is terrific to be able to follow that path and sort of just see where it leads. I think this may be part of how I get into trouble with late nights and too many hours of work (because I end up doing very last-minute research and planning to follow up on something that just happened in class that day), but I do enjoy it!

This happened with the topic of population/overpopulation in my class this year. I was using a futuristic science fiction book as a read-aloud, and it got us into this discussion of population. Next thing I knew I was at my computer all evening finding different resources on population, developing an activity/assignment, etc.

I tried to find sources that disagreed with each other, so that I could ask students to think for themselves and start asking their own questions. I had them interview their parents and look for more resources on their own, and so on. It was fun, but I hadn't planned on doing it at all. Sort of what they call a "teachable moment," only sometimes it turns out to be more than a moment. :) But following up on spontaneous stuff is part of the fun of not needing to be tied to a syllabus.

Laura

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Programs Offering Assistance with Student Loans

Tali Gordin-Kaviani reports that there are programs which help pay back or defer interest on student loans:

Something that has not come up in the discussion at all is the fact that if you teach in a teacher-shortage area, e.g., at a low-income public school, you can have payments on your student loans, specifically Perkins and Stafford, deferred for several years and even a large part of them even entirely forgiven. I found this out after I began teaching at Santa Ana High School -- I think someone at the school or the district told me about it. As a result, more than $5,000 of my Perkins loans have been entirely forgiven, and all my other student loan payments deferred. I can choose to make payments, but, like an in-school deferment, the interest doesn't accrue.

Also, AmeriCorps pays off student loans at the tune of $5,000 a year, for a possible two years, for starting teachers. I'm not sure if this is only for public school service, or if it's only if you teach at a low-income school, again. I'm pretty sure, though, that you have to be in a credential program or have a credential already, (I was in an internship program for my credential -- you get paid!) . I participated in that, but simply don't remember the entire set of requirements -- it wasn't stiff. You have to do a public-service related project with your kids -- which I did anyhow, and keep records of your hours for planning, teaching, extra-curricular work, etc. It wasn't a big deal and it was well worth it. It paid off two of my Stafford Loans.

Tali

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SV asks about salaries for AmeriCorps and Teach for America:

Hello.

I have a full-time job that I'm not happy with and I want to transition out. The discussions about AmeriCorps and Teach for America are really appealing. Can you please tell me how much these "volunteer" positions pay? I, like many of you, have a great deal of college teaching experience and all of my research has been in the elementary school classroom, but I do not have a credential.

This seems like a great way to get started... if I can make ends meet.

Thanks,

Tali Gordin-Kaviani reports that these programs pay a regular salary and gives details of the programs:

Both of these programs aren't "volunteer." You are paid by the school a regular teacher's salary. I'm not sure how Teach for America works (I think it's incentive-based as well) but the AmeriCorps program works with your regular teaching. In other words, these organizations don't pay your salary, the school districts do. Hence, as I was teaching at Santa Ana High School, getting paid by the Santa Ana Unified School District, I was participating in the AmeriCorps program. At the end of the year, when I turned in my documentation, co-signed by my department chair, the organization sent my stipend directly to the bank that held my student loan. I had to fill out a form that designated to which bank or school financial aid office the money was going to be sent, and which loan it was to pay off, or partially. You can participate in AmeriCorps for two years, which is how I got two and a half Stafford loans paid off. Our district actually contacted me and several other teachers about participating in AmeriCorps -- I think the district got something out of it because the whole idea of contacting the teachers was spearheaded by a local businessman/benefactor who knew how to tap into such programs. However, I think you should be able to find information on AmeriCorps's web site. On the West Coast, they are based at The University of San Francisco. Teach for America has a web site as well.

As for having the Perkins loan forgiven, once you begin working at a low-income school, or a school in a teacher-shortage area, you need to contact your loan holder and get their forbearance/deferment/loan forgiveness form, fill it out, have the district sign it and mail it back to the bank, both at the beginning of the school year (to set it up, and to defer any payments on the loan) and at the end of the school year (to have the appropriate percent forgiven).

Tali Gordin-Kaviani provides web addresses for AmeriCorps and Teach for America:

http://www.americorps.org/joining/moneyforcollege.html

http://www.teachforamerica.org/

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After checking a web site, CW cautions about expecting loan repayment assistance:

Read the fine print before getting too excited over the thought that some debts may be wiped away.

Teach for America information:
--Student Loan Deferral and Education Award Corps members will not need to pay back qualified* student loans until after their two-year commitments. In addition, any interest that accrues on these qualified student loans during a corps member's two years of service will be paid by Teach For America. While Teach For America is working to access this benefit through federal agencies such as AmeriCorps or the Department of Education, we will create the arrangement directly with lending agencies and will use private funding to make corps members' interest payments should those arrangements not materialize.

Unfortunately, due to the changes and cutbacks within AmeriCorps, we are not currently able to guarantee that corps members will receive the "education awards" they once received through AmeriCorps. The education award is a credit of $4,725 per year of service that corps members can use to pay back undergraduate debt and to pay future educational expenses. We will continue to work to access this benefit and will keep potential applicants apprised of further developments.

- CW

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Summer Activities

Paula Foster Chambers asks if teachers have summer responsibilities:

No one has mentioned this yet so I will go ahead -- do teachers really get summers off? Or are there a million things to do that can only be done in the summer? If you really do get summers off, then maybe it isn't so bad to work 10-12 hour days during the year.

Comments?

Paula Foster Chambers

WRK4US list manager

Daria Roche reports that she is working on course preparation:

Good question, Paula! I guess I'll really find out next summer.... Right now I'm under contract, but I do not have to appear at school officially until Aug. 23, which is the week before classes begin. I am, of course, trying to set up my classes, write the course descriptions and, eventually, put together some lessons before Aug. 23 rolls around. I'd love to hear what the other panelists have to say, because I'm looking forward to next summer!

Laura Adriance reports that teachers have some responsibilities or may have second jobs or continuing education demands:

That is an interesting question, Paula. Basically, yup, it's true. In my experience, however, teachers do actually do quite a bit of school work over the summer, and many work at second jobs to help increase the old income a little. Most teachers also need to do continuing education over the summer to keep their credential, and so on.

This summer I am doing a lot of work in my classroom, but I also have time to do a little volunteer work and clean my house, which was getting pretty scary cleanliness-wise! :^) When I taught in NYC, though, I taught summer camp during the summers -- couldn't afford to live in NYC without supplementing the independent school salary at least a little

When I was a kid, my dad and another teacher painted houses together over the summer to earn more money. My mom did some tutoring, but teaching mainly left her available during the summers so that she could spend time with us, her kids, and not have to pay for daycare. That is a big plus for many parents, and I think a big incentive for many people to stay in teaching.

I think it really has a lot to do with how far along you are in your teaching career. This summer (since I am just going into my second year in this position), I am spending lots of time at school. Today, I spent the whole day working on a social studies unit with a web-site-building component. The software they use in the district is new to me, WA state history is new to me since I come from NJ, and so it all takes a really long time to develop your first time around.

But, if I end up liking this unit and wanting to use it, or something similar, again, well then I won't have to spend time on this particular task next summer. So, over the course of several years in teaching, I think the summer work would decrease. Of course, if you change grade levels or courses, then it's going to go up again. (Also if the district decides to adopt new software -- heaven forbid!)

I actually hold a really unpopular opinion on this one. I am interested in trying year-round schooling. Children no longer need to be available to help with the harvest at home these days, so the reason for summer break no longer exists. When I was in the Peace Corps, I worked in schools that were on a trimester system, so you still got terrific vacations. But, they were more spread out, and I preferred that. But most teachers seem to disagree with me.

Still, there are some schools here and there that try this sort of thing, either by choice or else due to overcrowding. I interviewed at a school near here that had been on a year-round schedule, but then the community decided to change back. I don't know what the deciding factors were there.

For me, so far having summers off doesn't really make up for the long hours during the school year all that well. It sounds awful to complain because I have siblings who have so little vacation time it's ridiculous! But, if you're interested in health and fitness, I find that what happens is that the long days make it very hard to keep up good habits like exercise and cooking fresh veggies. Same thing goes for any other consistent activities, like having regular family time, a social life between Sept.-June, or doing volunteer work on a weekly basis (or cleaning your house -- oops! I blame that one on the long commute).

So, I would gladly give up the summer thing to gain more time on a weekly basis for my personal life and exercise, but that's just me. I value balance in my life. I think most teachers disagree with me and love summers off! Maybe after I have a few more years under my belt, I'll work shorter hours during the school year and I'll change my mind about this one.

I also am aware that plenty of people in other professions work terribly long hours all year, so I really shouldn't complain. But, in a lot of those other professions, there is also at least the potential to earn more money (sometimes a whole lot more money!) or at least higher status (if that's important to folks). So, I think it's really a trade-off either way. But it is definitely something to take into account when considering a career in teaching. It can be a huge plus if you have kids. Thanks for raising that point, Paula!

Laura

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Phil Giltner reports having summers off:

Yes, summers are technically off. On June 16, that was it until the end of August. My lessons are largely sketched out for next year. I am in touch with school, but they ask virtually nothing of me over the summer.

So, I work on the (very old) house, do some reading, and do some work for extra income. (Last year I worked as a carpenter's helper; this summer, I wrote some articles for a history book.) I spend August at my summer house, with my daughter. I really don't enjoy having that much time off, however. I get antsy.

Tali Gordin-Kaviani discusses teaching summer school and other paid activity:

Well, this is the first summer I've had off in many years.

Most of the teachers I know teach summer school, either a full six weeks, or they split a summer school assignment with another teacher. Summer school pay is higher than regular pay since it is based on one's hourly rate (the higher the degree and the greater the years of experience, the higher the hourly rate.)

Since I began teaching at the high school, I taught summer school during every summer. Also, since I do department support stuff as well, I've used the summers to compile the Handbook of Literary Terms , A Guide to Norse Mythology for our department (every student gets one), as well as co-write our Student Guide to Writing . My co-literacy coach and I also work during the summer to create curriculum units and auxiliary packets for our Language Arts faculty. This summer our packet is on the different kinds of essays required by the state standards -- personal, persuasive, analytical, etc. We are writing guidelines, creating models, etc. We get paid our hourly rate for this kind of work -- as a Ph.D., my hourly rate is pretty nice!

I simply cannot afford not to work over the summer. This summer I chose not to teach summer school because I wanted to write my own "stuff," but am still doing a hefty amount of the curriculum and reference packets writing, so I'm still making money.

All our high schools are on the traditional schedule, but we have middle schools and elementary schools that are year-round. In year-round schools, teachers teach for nine weeks, then have three weeks off, so their situation is a little different.

Daria Roche states that she will not be seeking regular summer employment:

I don't know if this is becoming the norm or not, but I am lucky enough to be paid over 12 months at my school. So I probably won't be seeking summer employment, except for tutoring.

Laura Adriance reports that she doesn't get paid for the curriculum work she is doing over the summer:

I am also paid over 12 months, but it is just my ten-month salary spread out across 12 paychecks. I think most districts either do this automatically, or else give teachers the option to be paid for ten months or 12.

Unfortunately, unlike Tali, my partner and I are not getting paid for any of the curriculum development we're doing over the summer. This is a bit frustrating since it's a ton of work. But, I wanted to use my summer to do volunteer work anyway, so I guess I'm just volunteering for my school. :)

We have very limited opportunities to earn hourly pay in our district right now. I would imagine that that probably differs by district and with the ups and downs of the economy.

Laura

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Reaction of Dissertation Advisors to K-12 Teaching Careers

DL asks about reactions of dissertation advisors to career choices:

Dear All,

I asked this question when we were having our discussion about academic administration and I think it is relevant for our wonderful discussion here. I would like to know how your dissertation advisors felt about your decision to go into non-college-level teaching.

Many thanks.

Daria Roche reports a mixed response from her dissertation director:

Another good question. My dissertation director has been quite supportive, though I know she would prefer if I were in a tenure-track position. But she is quite aware of the current tough market and of the fact that I am staying in San Francisco and not willing to leave the area or my husband for a university job! Luckily I had good company in friends who shared the same dissertation advisor: two of them finished their degrees right before me and made no effort whatsoever to go into academe, and they have never looked back. She has been very supportive of me and all of us, but I should add that in one of her e-mails in recent months she also encouraged me to continue publishing, just to keep my hand in things.... I don't really see myself publishing much about literature these days, unless it has to do with teaching. The types of conferences I plan to attend are those held by associations like the American Association of Teachers of French and ACTFL (American Council on Teachers of Foreign Languages).

Daria

Phil Giltner states that he has had a negative response from professors in general:

Well, I don't know for sure, I haven't really been in touch with my "Doktorvater." I do know that old profs whom I've run across seem to think this is beneath me.

Of course, they are all in their 70s, and not retiring, so I basically chew on my tongue and smile and nod.

Tali Gordin-Kaviani discusses the response of her dissertation advisor:

DL,

I wrote about that in my introduction, but basically, my dissertation advisor was mixed. On the one hand, he was very disappointed that I was not going to pursue a position in academe. I was already slated to go to MLA that year and he had planned on introducing me to some particular people in schools he thought he had a very good chance of getting me a tenure-track position. On the other hand, he understood my desire to teach somewhere where it made a difference, but he mostly focused on the fact that I would be paid a much higher salary than a beginning associate professor, and the fact that I would not have to displace my kids by moving. I think that focusing on these two factors -- monetary and familial -- made it easier for him to accept my decision. Five years later, he still wants me to send things out to journals and he takes a great comfort in the fact that I also teach a couple upper-division Analysis and Criticism courses a year at a private university. :) Btw, it also helped that his wife, a part-time associate prof herself, and the coolest woman ever, was very supportive of my decision and thought I was doing something that was more socially significant. :)) He has become significantly supportive since, particularly since some of my ex- high school students are now taking his courses.

Tali Gordin-Kaviani, in response to Phil Giltner, comments on professors who don't retire:

Phil's comment about the 70-year-old professors who won't retire reminded me of a friend of mine's "plan" for getting a tenure-track position: visit universities that had elderly professors in his area -- 17 th Century British Lit., take those elderly professors out to lunch...and push them off the stairs. ;-) He figured that would be his only chance of finding an opening.

Wait! Come to think of it, he now has tenure...hmmm....

Laura Adriance reports that her advisor was supportive overall:

Hi DL,

I had a very supportive advisor overall, and I think she did her best to be supportive of my decision to go back to the K-12 classroom. I definitely knew that she would love for me to apply for tenure-track university positions, but I had no interest in relocating and was basically feeling unmotivated to work on publishing. The market just seemed awful, and my heart wasn't in it, and I think she sensed that. She was very helpful with recommendations and so forth during my job hunt.

I think since my Ph.D. is in Education, I was also working and studying in a department where people tend to see teaching (at any level) as respectable and important work. It wasn't unusual to hear other grad students (or even assistant profs) contemplate the option of K-12 teaching, especially on days when the research world was seeming a little pointless. Schools are where the action is in education.

One thing I hope to do in the future is to reconnect a little with the university by offering my classroom as a place for grad students to collect data for projects, or as a site for a research project if an appropriate one comes up. Some profs in education are open to collaborating with teachers in their research (even to the point where a K-12 teacher's name appears as a second author on an article, etc.).

I imagine that even if your grad study was not in education, offering your classroom as a site for research projects might still be a way to stay connected to a university, if you teach near one. Having a student teacher in your classroom is another way. Cooperating teachers are a vitally important part of any new teacher's learning.

Laura

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Sexual Orientation, Sexuality, and K-12 Teaching

LF asks whether being open about homosexuality is possible:

I was wondering if anyone can speak to what it would be like for gay and/or lesbian teachers at the high school and grade school level. I've known a few gay men and lesbians who teach and even met an out lesbian principal once. I never discussed their experiences in depth, although I got the sense that they can gain much support from other teachers. But what about the students? In my university and community college classrooms, I've been out without any problems because I have the personality to make it entertaining as opposed to confrontational. But when I think of teaching high school kids, I imagine that outness is an impossibility and too much of a problem, if it were possible. Is this true generally or does it depend on the school. Thanks,

LF

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Tali Gordin-Kaviani discusses sexuality and K-12 teaching:

LF,

It's not the other faculty members, or even the students who need concern you, it's the parents. You are treading on much different ground when teaching at a public school where parents are participants -- very different than a college environment, where parents aren't ever part of the professional equation. You are teaching minors who have parents with many and varied notions of "proper" sexuality.

Our contract provides for partner benefits, so that reveals something about our district. Of course, it's also going to be a law in CA by next year anyhow, so it's not that we have a particularly progressive school board. As far as the district is concerned, it's basically don't ask, don't tell too obviously -- okay for signing up for benefits, but don't act like it.

Our high school has several gay teachers, and btw, an active openly gay and lesbian student group. I emphasize "student," because while a number of our students are openly gay, the teachers are not open about their sexuality. We generally know who is gay and who is heterosexual, and gay teachers aren't treated in any way differently by any of the faculty members (except possibly for the usual handful of conservatives, a very small minority in our case) -- it's simply not really an issue among the staff or the administration. Nobody cares what you are, as far as sexual orientation. An obnoxiously heterosexual teacher would be just as disliked as a gay or lesbian who made sure everyone knew his/her sexual orientation -- in both cases, it's too much sharing for a professional environment, even in such a supportive one as our school.

The real point is this -- it would be considered just as inappropriate for a heterosexual teacher to discuss his/her sexuality with students, whether it's done in an entertaining way or not, as it is for a gay teacher. We did have one gay teacher who made a huge point about his homosexuality, and although he used humor as well, he crossed the line by discussing his private life to at too deeply personal a level with students. It wasn't his homosexuality that cost him his job, it was his far too great a willingness to discuss his private matters with students. He crossed the line that needs to exist between students and teachers when it comes to our private lives. To quote one of our other gay teachers, this teacher "queened it up way too much" and lost his professionalism.

One of my closest friends, who is also my colleague at the school, is openly gay, but he keeps his private life entirely private at school. Most of us know he's gay, but it's not an issue we discuss at work as a faculty (obviously he and I talk about things as friends do), just like we don't necessarily discuss people's heterosexual relationships at work. Most importantly, let's face it, even those of us who are heterosexuals do not discuss our sexual orientation with our students -- either way, gay or hetero, discussion of a teacher's sexuality can cause major problems with parents, administration, and the school board, if parents choose to go that far.

Another friend, who is now a principal at a local junior high, came out quietly to those of us he trusted last year, while still an assistant principal at our school. Others just know he got a divorce last year, and that's it, although rumors of his homosexuality have abounded for years. Would it have been an issue during his promotion consideration if he was entirely socially open about his homosexuality? Most probably. It very likely might have cost him the principalship. So, professionally speaking, his decision to keep it quiet -- not secret, just quiet -- was probably a wise choice.

That is not to say that we do not discuss homosexuality in the classroom when it's relevant to a text or the subject being discussed. Every year I have several students who do their major research paper on gay/lesbian-related issues such as same-sex marriages and same-sex adoption/parenting. We've had several discussions in my classroom about the beliefs that it's a choice vs. studies that show it's inherent at birth, and so on. Since these kids are coming to terms with their own sexuality, the subject is bound to come up -- particularly in literature and writing classes, which are great forums for discussing ideas openly. While the kids discuss, and I bring in studies and essays for them to read and investigate, I keep the discussion on the analytical level, and never on the personal. A student may bring up his or her own experiences or opinions, but if anyone brings up a specific teacher's orientation I make it clear that it is not a subject for discussion. The reasons I give them are that they can support their arguments with their own experiences, but not with unsupported conjectures about other people, and also that it would be unethical to discuss another teacher behind his/her back.

What I'm saying, basically, is that our private lives as teachers should not really be a topic of discussion in the classroom. And it should definitely not be a topic for student entertainment, or, more importantly, as a way to connect with students. Hey, I don't really think my students need to know, or think about, what I do with my boyfriend at home! :)) Believe me, high school students are very curious, nosy :), and are hormonally-challenged :) by the nature of their age. I do sometimes deal with comments like "Hey, Dr. G., you're looking hot today!" or "Hey, Ms. Gordin, what did you and your man do this weekend? (smirk, smirk)," and on a number of occasions, "Hey, Dr. Gordin-Kaviani, do you think Mr. So-and-So/Ms. So-and-So is gay/lesbian?" and there are many ways to diffuse such comments with humor. My answers to the last one is always, "Why do you need to know?" and "Unless you're interested in dating someone, his or her sexuality is none of your business." Overall, we need to keep a boundary between our private life, to some extent, and the students -- for professionalism, and for our own sanity, if nothing else.

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Laura Adriance also discusses sexuality and K-12 teaching:

LF,

I think this is a very important question. When I was TA'ing in a teacher ed. program, the students had some really interesting discussions about how to handle this. I think the consensus was that it depends a lot on the school and the general atmosphere of the community.

I think Tali makes an excellent point in saying that the concern is really with parents. Students and colleagues at school would probably not be the issue. As a teacher, your "buffer" in dealing with parents is your administrator, so having a supportive administrator would probably be key.

I also agree that it is inappropriate for teachers to discuss their sexuality in school, but I think that that's also sort of a muddy issue. I am married (to a man), and that just comes up sometimes. I wouldn't say that I am discussing my sexuality. But I do mention my husband in conversation, and there is a picture of him on my desk.

My husband taught high school for many years, and I have borrowed elements of his curriculum, so in a conversation with other teachers I might say something like, "I got this debate unit from my husband...." I'm not trying to advertise my heterosexuality, but in our society heterosexual people say things like that.

So, then you have to ask yourself, would a gay or lesbian teacher say, "I got this unit from my partner? My girlfriend? My boyfriend?" To say, "I got this from a friend," instead would really be a conscious act and a choice. I don't know, but I would imagine that it might be an individual decision based on the particular school culture.

As a related issue, I had to teach "Health" (as in sex ed.) for my sixth graders last year. I went to a district workshop beforehand to review the approved curriculum, and we were literally handed a list of terms/concepts that we were not allowed to discuss at the sixth grade level.

Presumably, at least some of these terms get addressed in the health curriculum at older grade levels, but we were told in no uncertain terms that you must deflect questions about these with something like, "That would be a good thing to discuss with your parents." (As if kids are going to go home and do that! Maybe a few, but.... )

The list included contraception, abortion, homosexuality, and several others. I thought this was particularly ridiculous, considering that one of our students has two moms, and it seems to be common knowledge among the students.

I really do have respect for parents' rights to decide when their children are exposed to certain things, but I think the list was outdated (apparently it was developed by a group of school personnel and community members seven or eight years ago). It is also very hard to resist the urge to answer a sincere question about contraception, knowing that there is so much misinformation out there among kids.

One other new teacher looked at the list and said, "Yikes! I've had my students following the newspaper articles on gay marriage as part of our current events unit." Apparently nobody called him on it, but if a parent had been upset by it, I imagine it could have been an issue.

Similarly, I had a sixth grader who chose to do a biographical report on Dorothy Parker. She included the fact that Parker had had an abortion as a significant element in her life. One of my fifth graders overheard us talking and asked, "What's an abortion?" -- panic -- "Uh, that would be a good thing to discuss with your parents...."

My point is that I think there are gray areas, and keeping certain issues out of the classroom can be difficult, whether because they come up in casual conversation or in an academic context. I don't know that there is really a good answer to your question, but I suspect that a supportive administrator might have something to do with it. And lots of good judgment and people skills, too. I wish it were not so.

Laura

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LF thanks the panelists for their answers:

First, thank you Tali and Laura for your very candid and informative answers to my question about gay/lesbian teachers. The environment you describes sounds similar to what it's like in most corporate or 9-5 jobs I've had. Looks like I'll have to sub to get a taste of things.

Daria Roche praises the other panelists' responses:

Sorry I have no perspective yet on the gay/lesbian teacher question, but I think that Laura and Tali provided excellent responses.

Choice of Job Location?

LF asks if one can choose job location:

For all the panelists, I just have three last questions. First, a few of the posters mentioned that they could choose the region they wanted to live and teach in. Is this true? It sounds like there's a lot more choice where this is concerned in K-12 than university teaching.

Tali Gordin-Kaviani responds that choosing a location is possible:

LF,

One of the great things about teaching at the K-12 level is that there are always openings across the country. So yes, you have many more choices. Basically, choose where you want to live and then look for a place to teach. If you're willing to brave the trenches of public school, and particularly the inner city, rather then private school, then you shouldn't have too many problems finding a teaching position.

Daria Roche suggests that one can most easily find a job in an urban area:

I'll try and answer what I can of your three questions, LF. I'm not really sure about being able to pick the region where you want to live and be successful right away at getting a teaching job there. I guess if it's a big enough urban area, you're probably going to be able to find something eventually. I do feel that it's easier than at the university level, because of the number of schools out there.

Phil Giltner notes that there are many more options in K-12 teaching:

I don't want to say definitively that you can live where you want, but of course there are schools in every town, whereas there aren't colleges in every town. I myself already am as far south and as far west as I ever want to go for any purpose. ;-)

Laura Adriance comments that the chance of finding a job where you choose is good:

Hi LF,

<...a few of the posters mentioned that they could choose the region they wanted to live and teach in. Is this true? It sounds like there's a lot more choice where this is concerned in K-12 than university teaching.>

Yes, as I think Phil said, there are lots of K-12 schools. They're pretty much everywhere, so I think your chances of getting a position near where you want to live are pretty good.

Personally, I just decided on how long a commute I thought I could tolerate, and then applied to every district within that radius from my home. (I skipped one district that had a particularly bad reputation as far as "labor/management" relations, and I'm glad I did. They ended up having the longest running teacher strike in state history last year! Ugh!)

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Coaching and Extracurricular Activities

LF asks if coaching is mandatory:

Second, is coaching mandatory for teachers? I'm horrible at team sports and know nothing about them. I could teach yoga (I bet only the girls would be interested) and weight-lifting (I bet only the boys would be interested), but suspect most school boards don't count those as real sports :)

Tali Gordin-Kaviani responds that some kind of extracurricular advising is obligatory:

Coaching is not mandatory in any way. You do have to take on some sort of extracurricular advisory responsibility, though. You can coach the debate team, or the Academic Decathlon team, start or advise a creative writing journal, advise a language/cultural club, yearbook, school newspaper, etc. I developed the Battle of the Bands at our school. It's a competition between garage bands of all kinds -- rock, punk, rap, hip-hop, alternative. We have lots of them! (Our student population is around 4,000 students.) The event sells out every year, it's a great moneymaker, and it pulls in students who are not your typical mainstream/popular, "successful" students. It's tremendous fun, although every year I have to fight the administration to permit it -- which ultimately they do since the students love it. Other teachers have started a surfing club (we're in Southern Cal. after all, :)) ) a rock-climbing club, a French club, a Balet Folklorico (traditional Mexican dancing) group, just for some examples.

Btw, weight lifting is a regular after school activity for most athletic teams, on- and off-season. Yoga might be something to offer the school's dance team or drama club.

Daria Roche reports that coaching responsibilities may depend on the school:

As for coaching, it may depend on the school. I am not coaching anything (luckily for the kids!), but I will sponsor at least one extracurricular (probably a French club).

[snip response to another question]

I hope this helps a bit!

Daria

Phil Giltner comments on coaching at his school:

This certainly varies. At Albany Academy, it used to be mandatory to coach, but with our regime change over the last two years, this has slid by the boards. For my own part, I've never played sports, nor do I know all the rules to any sport, so I'd be a catastrophe. I'd spend all my time telling the kids that it's okay not to win. ;-)

I do a few extracurriculars which diverts critics from complaining. I also serve as a model for kids who don't care about sports, which is a good thing for retention of kids (remember we are a private school).

Laura Adriance reports that coaching is not mandatory at the elementary level:

<Second, is coaching mandatory for teachers?>

Since I teach at an elementary, it's definitely not mandatory for me. But there are many teachers who offer club activities after school (including yoga!), and they do get a little additional pay for that. I think it is a very small amount, but any little bit helps.

My husband, teaching at a public high school, was the advisor for the debate team for several years (sort of a big commitment since it involved traveling to competitions, sometimes overnight, with the kids, but the students really appreciated it). He has also assisted in coaching a couple of sports. So, if the head coach knew what they were doing, I think he was able to just take orders and help out without knowing that much at the start.

But this was all by choice. I don't think it was mandatory. Although, at a public high school, I suspect you might have a hard time getting hired if you didn't express some willingness to do some kind of extracurricular, whether sports-related or not. But maybe I'm wrong there. The teachers I know have sometimes waited until after they have some kind of tenure/job security to drop the extracurricular and then let the new folks take over.

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Advising Students

LF asks about the role of guidance counselor:

Lastly, I imagine that much of what you as teachers do involves advising students on life, career plans, etc. This is something I really enjoyed at the college level. I made it mandatory for students to see me once during the semester partly to touch base with their work but partly to find out more about them. So, I wanted to know if teachers often become guidance counselors -- or at least how often you play that role. Is this a difficult role to play?

Thanks for a great discussion!

LF

Tali Gordin-Kaviani discusses formal and informal advising and the role of official guidance counselors:

Whether in a formal way or not, you always end up advising students. Formally, we have "High School Planning" classes that are mandatory for all freshmen, and we have "Advisement" for all students, which takes place during an extra 20 minutes attached to third period every Tuesday and Thursday. We go over grades with students, talk about college and future plans, discuss events outside school that may affect the students, use it for study hall -- whatever is needed. Informally, you'll find that students come to you before school, after school, during your free period, to talk about problems, to ask for advice, or just to talk sports, boyfriends, homework, or to hang out. I think this is where most real advising takes place.

Being a guidance counselor is a totally different job, and requires a different degree/credential. To be perfectly blunt, our guidance counselors, with the exception of one or two I can think of, are useless, and often screw up even a student's schedule. They are basically more bureaucrats than counselors. What's more, they aren't really equipped to deal with personal issues, only with academic issues. (We aren't unique in that sense. My own children's academic counselors in their high schools were really a joke as well -- and these were in two high schools that rank in the top ten high schools in the country consistently, in Irvine, CA. So it's not the area or the school, it's the person. My children, however, had a Ph.D. for a mom, and were/are very self-directed, so they didn't need academic counseling. But what if they had needed help??) On the other hand, at our school we do have excellent school psychologists and a really great outreach person. (Since many of our students are immigrants, and not necessarily legal ones, we have some issues that require more than just your average counseling.)

Daria Roche regrets that she cannot provide any information:

I just can't answer your final question, unfortunately, since I don't have the experience yet.

Phil Giltner gives his take on the requirements of advising:

We have advising groups: five-ten kids assigned to a specific teacher. You meet regularly. As to whether it's difficult, I think this varies from individual to individual. It's really just a matter of getting to know them and being open, honest, and imagining what they need to do or know.

Laura Adriance discusses advising at the elementary and middle school levels:

[LF wrote:]

<So, I wanted to know if teachers often become guidance counselors -- or at least how often you play that role. Is this a difficult role to play?>

Since I teach younger students, I think the guidance piece often has more to do with parents than students. (Should I push my child to do all honors courses in middle school? How many extracurriculars are too many? That sort of thing.) But since I do have sixth graders, they are starting to get into some typical adolescent issues, and I am really just learning to address those.

For instance, what exactly constitutes sexual harassment in a school setting? When is it just teasing, and when is it a serious problem? We had students that were really trying to begin to work through that last year. I find it difficult, but interesting, too. Really makes you think.

I just watched the movie Thirteen , incidentally, probably good viewing for anyone thinking about working with adolescents. I believe it was co-written by a young teenager, and with that in mind, it was pretty interesting -- and scary. Things have changed since I was thirteen!

Laura

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Funding for Supplies and Professional Development and Related Tax Deductions

EM asks if schools provide funding for 'extra' supplies:

Hi Tali, Phil, Daria and Laura:

I have a question which comes out of my own teaching experiences at public universities which were chronically short of funds. I'm curious about the kind of support you have for buying "extra" supplies -- for example, if you want to buy slides for a class on the Renaissance or a music CD to use in a class about World War II, etc. Does your school have a discretionary fund for this kind of stuff? Or do you wind up buying these materials out of your own pocket?

Thanks!

Tali Gordin-Kaviani notes that reimbursement in public schools is slow but that money spent by the teacher personally is tax-deductible:

EM,

First, school money in public school never comes from a single fund. Classroom supplies usually are paid for by department funds (again, in our case, there are a few different funds here as well -- ELD money, Language Arts money, etc.) WE also get Title One money. (Title One is a federal funding program for schools with a certain high percent of low-income students.) So who would pay for the supplies you want may be the decision of your department chair.

It also depends on how fast you want the stuff. Usually a department will have some funds for the things you mentioned, but it takes time to get anything since any order has to go through the district. It's not like there's cash or a separate account from which a department chair can just write a check. They would need to place an order, send it to the district with the appropriate account number listed, and then it gets sent out. In many cases, you can buy what you want yourself and then get reimbursed by the department It takes months, though, in our case.

Also, our librarian (sorry -- that's media specialist these days) often tells teachers to get a particular video she might not have and she reimburses them from her supplies funds.

The advantage to buying such supplies on your own and not ask to be reimbursed is that it's yours. You can keep them for whenever you need them, and not need to compete for time with another teacher who might want to use them. And no one loses them, or parts of them, either!

emember that anything you spend for your classroom is tax-deductible. So keep receipts.

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Daria Roche asks about funds for professional development:

Hi EM,

This is a very good question, and one that I am trying to get an answer for at my new school (but everyone seems to be on vacation!) During my interview, the head of the school said that there was a "professional development" fund for teachers to use in various ways, but I don't have any details at all, yet. As for teaching supplies, videos, etc., I still need to find out.

A question for the others: can you access school or district $ for professional development? If so, how do you go about getting the $ (do you have to compete with the other teachers, etc.), how much can you get, and what can/do you use it for?

Daria

Laura Adriance reports that most of her expenses are reimbursed but that there are advantages to using your own funds:

Hi EM,

My experience is similar to Tali's on this one. There are different sources of funds, and just by talking to people I have been able to get reimbursed for most of my expenditures this past year.

I, too, sometimes prefer to pay for things out-of-pocket because then it's mine. If I decide to look for a job in a district closer to my home in a year or two, I can take those things with me. If I were to change districts and had to leave certain books and materials behind, it might be hard to replace them.

I believe, as a teacher, you can now take a deduction of up to $250 for classroom materials (if you itemize?) on your federal income tax, without showing receipts. I keep mine anyway, in case of audit or whatnot, but no one asked for them last year.

The only thing I haven't purchased that I'd like to is a large curriculum unit from a non-profit. I've heard it's great, but it's $500, and that's definitely beyond what I can spend on one thing. I am also interested in some summertime professional development courses that are too pricey for me, and I haven't (yet) found any way to get help paying for those. But smaller expenses haven't been a problem.

Laura

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Phil Giltner responds that he is reimbursed for items up to $100:

We've been okay on this sort of thing: though we haven't got a lot of the whiz-bang stuff I'd like to see (I'd really like my own digital projector so I don't have to chase around to find one, or so I can do stuff extemporaneously), I've been able to buy anything I like up to $100 at a pop: I just expense it afterwards.

Tali Gordin-Kaviani responds to Daria's question about funds for professional development:

Some districts will pay for teachers who go to AP conferences in the summer. You have to apply to the district. They pay the conference fees directly to the College Board, the company that gives these conferences.

We had a mandatory one-week training this year since we adopted a new textbook that embedded the state content standards. Since the adoption was mandatory, as was the training for using it, teachers who went to the training in the summer were paid $500 for going to the week-long seminar. Teachers who went during the year did not since their absence required a sub. All the teachers are to get an additional $500 for the additional required 80 hours of staff development meeting/work we did during the year -- we're still waiting for this last $500.

One of our teachers, who advises the school newspaper, was given a stipend to go to a two-week journalism conference this summer. He applied to the district and got the funds.

On the other hand, you can't get money for credential courses.

So it all depends on what the money is for.

FG comments on lack of societal support for teachers:

I haven't followed this entire discussion because I do not want to teach K-12. But can you imagine this discussion in any other profession? I can't visualize nurses buying antibiotics and bandages out of their own pay (except in an emergency-tear-up-your-petticoats-for-the-wounded sort of situation), or engineers asking to be reimbursed for the additional bolts they thought the bridge needed in order to be safe, or accountants for a large firm ponying up for the expensive software needed to do the job. In most professions you are either an independent practitioner who expects to deduct all legitimate business expenses for tax purposes or an employee whose employer supplies space, tools and supplies.

Just another reminder that our society gives a lot of lip service to the idea that education is important but consistently fails to back the words with financial support.

FG

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KR notes that there are also job expenses, such as for clothing and dry-cleaning, in other careers:

I agree that teachers -- whether at the university or K-12 level -- typically end up spending too much money on educational materials, particularly in the public system.

However, no matter what job you do, there are expenses that you are expected to incur personally, or that you choose to incur in the interests of being professional or doing a better job. For example, I work in a high- end consultancy/financial-type company and am expected to be dressed in professional, business attire. This is expensive to purchase, and the dry- cleaning bills often cost over $100 per month. My friends and relatives who are teachers can wear less expensive, machine-washable clothing. My company doesn't pay for my cell phone, but I need one in order to have the flexibility to be away from the office during business hours.

Since this listserv is about changing careers, I'll make the comment that I wasn't completely prepared for the initial expenses on clothing etc. in the first six months of this job. Although the income was higher than I'd previously made, it all went to wardrobe for a while. (And unlike many women, shopping for clothes isn't my thing so it was a chore on the weekends to go shopping). No matter what career you enter -- teaching, government, business, self employment, etc. it's probably prudent to be prepared for some initial spending -- whether on wardrobe, technology, or teaching materials.

Some Monday AM thoughts ....

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HJ responds to KR, suggesting that some business expenses are tax-deductible:

Yes, but your clothes, dry-cleaning and cell-phone could all be considered non-reimbursed business expenses which makes them tax-deductible.

I believe an earlier message said that only a part of the money spent on classroom supplies is tax-deductible.

I agree that it is absurd to expect our teachers to supply the most basic classroom supplies in order to be able to do your job -- I mean things like pencils, paper, glue, scissors. At least everyone gets those in their job.

RD reports that a Texas school board mandates that teachers must dress professionally:

Here in Austin, TX the school board recently decreed that teachers must dress "professionally, to set an example for students." A local paper noted that there was no suggestion of a raise that might allow teachers to purchase such a wardrobe....

PF responds to HJ, suggesting that all teaching supplies may be tax-deductible:

Actually, if I remember correctly, the initial post said that up to $250 worth of supplies were tax-deductible without receipts. Implication: larger sums can certainly be considered tax-deductible, but you need receipts to justify what you're claiming on the tax return....

Best,

Tali Gordin-Kaviani responds to HJ with more information about taxes and reports that she had to invest in a work wardrobe:

HJ,

Any non-reimbursed business expense is only partially deductible. In other words, you list the entire amount you spent out of pocket, but the IRS only allows a certain percent of it to be deductible -- regardless of profession. In fact, teachers with five years of credential also get an additional tax break. I don't remember the number of that IRS form, but it's not hard to find.

e get pencils, pens, papers, glue scissors, etc. at work as well -- seriously, it's not as bad as all that. :)) But school budgets being what they are, we sometimes run out before the end of the year.

Btw, I had to invest in suits and more "professional" attire when I started teaching in public schools because I usually wore jeans when I was teaching at the university and junior college. We have a dress code for the kids, and expect teachers to dress professionally as well.

Tali

VK notes that most work clothes are not deductible:

You can't deduct the expenses of a professional work wardrobe. Only a uniform (and the IRS isn't interested in the larger semantic field of "uniform").

QP explains why most work wardrobes are not tax-deductible:

The reasoning is based on the principle that some clothes may reasonably be worn in other places besides work, and some may not. Therefore a suit, which may be worn to church, e.g., is not deductible, while a delivery person's uniform, which would not be worn anywhere but work, is deductible. Obviously there is room for argument and ambiguity here, but that's the principle. It's clearly meant to avoid the abuse of the deduction by someone who deducts expensive clothes that could qualify as business attire but are instead worn elsewhere.

TS, responding to HJ, wonders if businesses could contribute supplies and personnel time to schools:

[HJ said:]

I'm sure this varies from school to school, or at least district to district, and I know children are expected to fulfill a list of supplies, at least part of which are held by the teacher for all to use (kleenex, if nothing else.) But it occurs to me that businesses are often wasteful with such simple resources -- wouldn't it be good if the companies who will ultimately benefit from the education provided by the taxpayers would contribute from their bulk buying?

I know some businesses do adopt schools, and I think that is a good thing in many ways. I am reminded of my son's high school physics teacher's response to the comment that Jeff was so impressed with his teaching that he wanted to become a high school teacher. The man (about to retire) said, "No, he shouldn't do that. Conditions in education are not what they were (or something to that effect)." Based largely on that man's advice, Jeff used his physics degree to obtain a job in the private sector that pays much better. I have thought many times that those big-money businesses really owe personnel as well as other resources to the struggling education establishment. Could it be done on a "sabbatical" basis? Would they have to partner with a conventionally-trained educator? What thoughtsdo you have?

TS

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EM provides information on a charity which facilitates donations to teachers:

In response to those who asked about supplies and TS' comment, there is a great on-line charity called Donors Choose ( http://www.donorschoose.org/ ) which allows people to donate money which will then be given to public school teachers in NYC for their specific projects (each teacher lists a project and its needs and you can then donate to the specific teacher and project). I asked the question originally because I am curious and have been about which kinds of projects are best to fund. (Do teachers need ordinary supplies in other words or is it more important to give to the extraordinary project?) To some degree, this question also came out of my own experiences teaching (supplies are a problem at every level in our educational system -- universities as well as high schools, middle schools and elementary schools).

It'd be great if other school districts had donor organizations similar to Donors Choose to lift the burden from teachers. And, of course, it'd be even better if school districts never needed a donor organization.

EM, Ph.D.

WF notes another web site which helps teachers:

Craigslist also has a "teachers' wish list" category on its web site:

Craigslist.org

Best,

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FG comments on dress standards for teachers:

Quoting RD:

<Here in Austin, TX the school board recently decreed that teachers must
dress "professionally, to set an example for students." A local paper noted
that there was no suggestion of a raise that might allow teachers to
purchase such a wardrobe....>

In other words they want teachers to go back to dressing as they did in the '50s and '60s when women wore dresses and heels (pants would probably be ok now) and men wore suits or sports jackets.

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