INSIDE H.R.
Hosted by Paula Foster
Edited by: Brenda Denzler
October 2008
- Lauren Lefkowitz, Human Resource Consultant, Calvert
- Elaine Hess, Senior Corporate Recruiter, Deltek, Inc
- Angela R. Hargrove, Chief, WASO HR Operations Division, National Park Service
- Leatrice Buck, HR Manager for Talent Acquisition
The geography of job applicants; trends in applications; how to make a cover letter stand out; following up after initial contact
Being overqualified vs. a “foot in the door” approach
Overqualified = too old?
Costs of employee turnover
Working with headhunters
Working as a headhunter or HR professional
Federal H.R. practices
Federal jobs & veterans’ preference
USAJOBS website
Applying on-line
Re-posted jobs
Moving from academe to administration
Journalism
Transitioning from freelancing to permanent employment
Exempt vs. non-exempt positions
Fair market value
Finding the hiring manager
Length of cover letters
Length of resumes
Setting up interviews
Following up on interviews
Getting feedback
Gaps in the resume
Internships and pay
References
Qualifications, skills & technical knowledge
“Selling” academic qualifications
Non-compete clauses
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Dear Subscribers –
It is a pleasure to ‘speak’ with you through this listserv and to help you get some insight into the recruiting process, job hunting, resume building, and other mysteries Inside HR. I have been ‘on the inside’ of the HR world for 7 years – first as a Human Resources Generalist for Enterprise Rent-A-Car and, for the past 2 years, as a Human Resources Consultant for Calvert, a sustainable and responsible mutual fund company.
In my current position, I work on all aspects of human resources, including training, compensation, policy and program development/management, and recruiting and hiring. I was originally attracted to Human Resources because I liked the idea of helping people (simple and naïve, I know). After spending several years in the profession, I’ve found that helping people through Human Resources is a lot less simple than it seems. My goal is always to look out for the best interest of the employee, while also looking out for the best interest of the company.
In terms of recruiting, I work with hiring managers on shaping job descriptions, developing guidelines surrounding candidates’ required skills and experience, determining fair compensation plans, posting and publicizing open positions, screening candidates through résumé reviews and initial interviews, guiding managers through the interview process and helping to determine the best candidates for each open position at Calvert. I work to get the best possible ‘fit’ for both the hired candidate and the company – with ‘fit’ being both the key to success and a mystery (what the heck is ‘fit’ anyway?).
During this week, I am available to answer questions you have about all aspects of human resources. Whether you are thinking of become a human resources professional yourself, looking for a job in a specific industry, or simply trying to figure out where you may ‘fit’ in the professional world, I hope to help! From writing your résumé and cover letter, to where to look for jobs, to interview skills, I’m up for discussing whatever you need.
Best regards,
Lauren Lefkowitz, PHR
Calvert
4550 Montgomery Ave
Suite 1000N
Bethesda, MD 20814
301/657-7010 (Direct)
301/657-7000 (Fax)
www.calvert.com
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Hello Subscribers!
I’m excited to be able to discuss with you the “going’s on” of the HR world I have been involved in for the last 7 years. I began my trek into HR as a headhunter (agency recruiter) in Washington, DC, working at a boutique agency, and for the past 4 years I have worked for Deltek, Inc., a project-based software company as a Senior Corporate Recruiter.
Currently I recruit for all levels in our Worldwide Sales, Global Support and Global Services organizations. These positions range from Administrative Assistants, Global Account Managers, VP of Federal Sales for our West Coast region to an Accounting & Finance Consultant who implements our software. Having started with Deltek when we were only 500 people, I also have had a chance to work in employee relations, benefits and compensation.
Here’s a little more about my current recruiting activities. I work with our hiring managers to develop position descriptions, reformat and polish resumes -both internally and externally. I coach interview panelists on interviewing techniques: what to say (and how to say it), as well as what not to say, what to avoid in an interview and lastly -- which is always fun – appearance and first impressions. Another goal I have in recruiting is to help people think outside the box and maximize the tools and approaches they use to reach out to their potential applicants: i.e. Google searches, LinkedIn, Alumni networks, etc.
I hope to be able to answer any questions you may have regarding human resources and recruiting. What is recruiting and what role does it play for my corporation or agency? How do I craft the best resume? How do I may my resume the most effective “key in the door”? What is a headhunter? These are a few of the many topics I am prepared to help you with during this next week!
Sincerely,
Elaine Hess
Sr. Corporate Recruiter
Tel: 703.885.9302
Fax: 703.885.9392
elainehess@deltek.com
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Hello Subscribers,
I’m Angela Hargrove, a Human Resources Officer in the Washington Area Servicing Office, Office of Human Resources, Assistant Director, Workforce Management located in the National Park Service, under the Department of Interior. (Isn’t bureaucracy great?) My entire career has been spent with the Federal Government, here in Washington, DC.
As a Human Resources Officer, I oversee and manage a comprehensive classification, recruitment, staffing and records management program. I provide advice and guidance to managers and supervisors on the various hiring authorities used within the Federal Government and I interact with employees advising them of their entitlements under health insurance, life insurance, retirement, leave, pay and other benefits. In layman’s terms, I handle recruitment and pay issues.
My educational background is in the area of Business Administration and Management and I fell into Human Resources by accident. I began my Federal Career as a clerk typist in 1985 in a Human Resources Office.
Federal Government recruiting is probably a lot different than what you’d find in the private sector. There are numerous laws, policies and procedures that we must follow; it requires an individual who has the ability to be detail oriented and to handle a variety of issues at once.
I am hopeful that I can provide you with something that will be useful to you in your employment search. I encourage you to ask questions. Given all the regulatory guidance involved with Federal recruitment, I may not have an immediate answer, but I assure you that I’ll get back to you with the needed information. Good Luck to you in your job search!!
Angela R. Hargrove
Chief, WASO HR Operations Division
National Park Service
Phone: 202-354-1927
Fax: 202-371-1762
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Hello Subscribers!
I am excited to talk with professionals who are interested in looking at new career opportunities. Like many of you, I did not begin my career in my current field, I happened upon it after a few years of experience.
My background includes over nine years in the HR field. And my HR experience has mainly focused on Recruiting. I have had the wonderful opportunity to work in HR in the transportation and media industries. Prior to HR, I was in sales for four years. I worked my way up to management and then decided to make the leap to recruiting. Currently, I am the HR Manager for Talent Acquisition – the industries new way of saying recruiting. This means that I handle everything that relates with new employees joining our company, transitioning current employees to different opportunities within the company, people that apply to my company, and positioning my company as an employer of choice in today’s environment.
I welcome the opportunity to converse with you and look forward to your questions.
Best,
Leatrice Buck
The geography of job applicants; trends in applications; how to make a cover letter stand out; following up after initial contact
Question from K.L.
I am a recent PhD in Environmental Studies. I conducted my “nationwide” job search for six months after graduation this past year but I was in a small town in the Pacific Northwest. This didn’t seem to work, so I just moved straight to D.C. When you look at potential hires do you gravitate toward applicants who currently reside in your area? The internet job search process has become very tough. Many jobs I apply for do not even respond at all. Is this a growing trend and will it become the norm? Are Human Resources just flooded with resumes?
Can you comment on any jumps in the number of applicants you have seen over time? Recently I have had success writing very direct, brief and bulleted cover letters as opposed to pouring my heart into a tailored cover letter. What is it that really makes an applicant stand out? Cover letter, resume, expertise, experience? Also, once I am considered a top candidate, how often should I follow up with further inquiries? For one job they have let me know they will get back to me soon…but I have had this message each week for the past four weeks. Should I keep following up? There are so many Human Resource mysteries to job seekers that any insight you can share into how you select top candidates would be appreciated.
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Answer from Lauren:
Well, K.L., I think you've managed to ask every question in the book! Let me answer them one by one:
When you look at potential hires do you gravitate toward applicants who currently reside in your area?
It depends on the position - for more entry level to mid level positions (if we're talking in dollars, I'd say typically up to $60,000) I look locally. We typically won't pay to fly someone in for an interview unless it's at a higher level OR is a really specialized position. I definitely still look at out-of-town resumes, but they have to be really impressive for me to go through the effort of finding out why they are looking in my area, if they are looking for relocation money, etc. I do find it helpful when candidates put a note either in their cover letter or on their resume that says something to the effect of 'I am actively seeking employment in the metropolitan DC area' or ‘I will be relocating to the DC area after the new year’.
The internet job search process has become very tough. Many jobs I apply for do not even respond at all. Is this a growing trend and will it become the norm? Are Human Resources just flooded with resumes?
As the application process has gotten more and more tech oriented, yes, it has become a much less personalized process. Some recruiters will send 'TBNT' (Thanks But No Thanks) letters in response to submitted resumes, but some do not (and some responses will go to your spam folder, so don’t forget to check!). In addition, online applications are getting so easy and user friendly that candidates will apply to jobs they are not even minimally qualified for (i.e. a recent college grad with an engineering degree applying for a Senior Marketing Manager position because it sounds interesting) and so application systems, and therefore recruiters, are flooded with resumes.
With the current economic climate, some companies may be keeping positions open and taking applicants, but may not be actually hiring yet. They may be waiting for approval to start or continue the hiring process while budgets are worked out. It is increasingly difficult to find and contact recruiters from the different companies. I will say that if you are a qualified candidate for a position, you will be contacted – it’s difficult from our end to find the right person for a position, so recruiters will not pass up a resume that matches a position.
HOWEVER, and let this be a warning and a piece of advice, if you have ANY spelling or grammar issues in your resume or cover letter, expect to be omitted from the candidate pool. It’s the easiest way for a recruiter to weed out a resume. For me, it doesn’t matter how great your experience is, if your resume lists you as a ‘Marketing Manger’ I won’t even look past your title!
Can you comment on any jumps in the number of applicants you have seen over time?
The job market is tough right now. I have seen jumps (especially because I am in the financial sector) in the past couple of months. With unemployment going up and companies cutting budgets, this is definitely a difficult time to apply for a job. Again, the worst thing to do is apply for jobs that don’t remotely match your interest or experience. Forecasts say that in the next 10 years, however, there will be more jobs than qualified people, so there is hope!
What is it that really makes an applicant stand out? Cover letter, resume, expertise, experience?
Yes, yes, yes, and yes.
I am personally not a subscriber to the jazzy, ‘knock ‘em dead with an opening line’ cover letter philosophy. Recruiters have different opinions about this, so I can’t advise for the whole recruiting population. For me, though, I find it phony when a cover letter has a sales pitchy edge to it. I personally think what is important on a cover letter is 1) the position for which you are applying (you’d be shocked at how many people reference the wrong position or company on their cover letters); 2) why you want this position (this is especially important if your past experience doesn’t quite match the job description); and 3) why you qualify for this position.
In the end, it’s certainly that mysterious ‘fit’ which is a combination of skills, experience, personal presentation, and personality/work style fit with the other department members.
Also, once I am considered a top candidate, how often should I follow up with further inquiries? For one job they have let me know they will get back to me soon…but I have had this message each week for the past four weeks. Should I keep following up?
In my experience, I don’t mind if a candidate I’ve interviewed follows up with me weekly, but you should know that you will not be forgotten about if you are the right candidate. There is so much that goes on behind the scenes (as referenced above, budgets and approvals, but also how busy the manager is, who is involved in the interview/decision making process, projects that are going on within the company or department) that more often than not, it’s the company’s delays that hold the position up. Especially in this economy, it’s not unusual for you to interview today and not hear the end result for a month or more.
Being overqualified vs. a “foot in the door” approach
Question from A.W.
The question I have has come up on the listserv before, but I am interested in what the "insiders" would recommend to handle it. How would you address in your cover letter that you are overqualified but very interested in the job? And would you even consider someone overqualified? In what cases?
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Answer from Lauren
That is a great question and a tough one to address because the answer is almost always going to be 'it depends'.
Let me answer your questions in reverse order:
There are cases in which I would consider someone who is technically 'overqualified' for a position.
The first case would be if I were looking for a very specialized skill, like someone who handles mutual fund tax issues or has experience specifically with water as an energy source in emerging markets. I would want to make sure that the role would not be too small for them and that the salary range would be acceptable, but with some specializations, it's more of a specialty fit than a number of years or breadth of experience.
The second case would be someone starting over/switching careers, like someone who was a math major undergrad, worked as a financial analyst for a few years, went back to grad school for, say, a Masters in Humanities, and wanted to move to a human resources position. There has to be an understanding on the part of the applicant that the salary cut in 'starting over' could be significant. This is where it's vital to use your cover letter/objective to convince the recruiter that you want this position and can be a match (which I'll get to below).
The third case would be for people who have taken an extended leave from working, whether to be a stay at home parent, take personal time, etc. Often they need to brush up on their industry and so may come back into the workforce at a lower level than when they left.
Finally, I am a firm believer in the ‘dream job’. Let’s say you are managing grant proposal writing for a living…your current job is to supervise five people who write and edit their work for the final submission. BUT, your dream job, and what you’ve always liked best, is the actual writing. In your current position, you no longer have the opportunity to write; instead you edit and supervise. If you can convince me that the specific job duty you used to do is your passion, I will absolutely interview you.
There are also cases in which I would NOT consider someone who is technically 'overqualified' for a position.
I would absolutely not consider an overqualified candidate if they saw the posted position as their way to get their ‘foot in the door’. For example, I get a number of applicants who are “willing” to work in our client services department (an entry level position) because they have the ultimate goal of being in sales. While that is the typical career path for a client services employee, it’s not functional to bring in someone with several years of sales/sales management experience, start them back at square one and hope they get into sales. Companies put a lot of time, effort and money into recruiting, hiring, training and developing employees – to bring someone into a more entry level position and still have to go through the same training program, still expect the same typical two year commitment to the entry level position, etc. just isn’t realistic.
The other situation in which I would not consider and overqualified candidate is in the event of desperation – in this economic climate, people are willing to take pay cuts, less responsibility, lower level positions, etc. for job security. The problem with this for employers is that as soon as the economy changes or another position opens, the candidate wants to make an immediate move. While employers can never predict which new hires will stay or go, it’s generally a good assumption that when someone is willing to take any kind of cut, it’s because they are desperate for a job.
No matter how much you like a company, the people you work with, even the money, if the actual job you do is not interesting to you, you will not be happy!!!
Writing a cover letter/resume to convince an employer you are the right candidate can be tricky.
Every recruiter works differently. Some rely heavily on the cover letter, some go straight to the objective/professional summary, and some will look specifically at the experience on the resume. That said, if you are switching gears, or applying for a position for which you are overqualified, make it clear everywhere you can that you want this job! In the cover letter, make sure to reference the job title and company, so if a recruiter looks at your resume and isn’t sure that you meant to apply for this particular position, they can reference your cover letter for reassurance. If you are overqualified, acknowledge it by talking about what your experience is (but never use the word ‘overqualified’ in your cover letter or resume – it sounds pretentious!) and why this position suits you. In your objective, write specifically why you want this position and why it suits you. If you do a summary instead of an objective, list the skills related to this particular position.
In a case where you are switching careers and/or willing to be overqualified for what you do, agency recruiters (also known as ‘headhunters’) can be your best advocate! They specifically get to know your situation and their job is to ‘sell’ employers on you. I know a number of people who know what they like to do, but don’t know how to find a job that matches their skills and interests. A headhunter can be great for that. Beware, though, that an agency recruiter’s job is to ‘sell’ you to a company and to ‘sell’ a company to you, so take time to do your own research on positions and companies and ask the hiring employer lots of questions.
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Response from A.W.
I would absolutely not consider an overqualified candidate if they saw the posted position as their way to get their ‘foot in the door’. For example, I get a number of applicants who are “willing” to work in our client services department (an entry level position) because they have the ultimate goal of being in sales. While that is the typical career path for a client services employee, it’s not functional to bring in someone with several years of sales/sales management experience, start them back at square one and hope they get into sales. Companies put a lot of time, effort and money into recruiting, hiring, training and developing employees – to bring someone into a more entry level position and still have to go through the same training program, still expect the same typical two year commitment to the entry level position, etc. just isn’t realistic.
I am wondering if this may vary for different fields. I was actually recommended by a principal investigator at a large research university to apply for a position below my level because it could open up doors to positions appropriate to my level. He apparently also started out as a research assistant with a Ph.D. and later worked his way to become a PI.
I wonder if getting a "foot in the door" is many applicants' secret hope but they know better than revealing that as it may disqualify them.
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Response from B.R.
The other situation in which I would not consider and overqualified candidate is in the event of desperation – in this economic climate, people are willing to take pay cuts, less responsibility, lower level positions, etc. for job security. The problem with this for employers is that as soon as the economy changes or another position opens, the candidate wants to make an immediate move. While employers can never predict which new hires will stay or go, it’s generally a good assumption that when someone is willing to take any kind of cut, it’s because they are desperate for a job.
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Response from N.P.
A.W. says: "I would absolutely not consider an overqualified candidate if they saw the posted position as their way to get their 'foot in the door'.
Hate to have this view go unchallenged. Napoleon said "Every soldier in my armies has a field marshal's baton in his backpack" and every beginner has hopes to be promoted. Don't punish them for that or their extra qualifiction. They should not be promoted if they did a lousy job in the entry position, but many people I know did a hell of a job in the entry position, and the experience there helped them be a better candidate for promotion. And many overqual'd people STAY in the entry position, either from choice (less care to take home to the new kids) or because of downsizing.
Give them - and you - a chance! Might be the best selection you ever got the chance to make, and made.
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Response from Lauren
Actually, it was me, Lauren, who made that statement. If you go back to reference the entire response I wrote, I did mention several reasons why I would consider hiring an overqualified candidate for a position. My point in this particular paragraph was that if a candidate is willing to take ‘anything’ to get their foot in the door, and will not be satisfied in the more entry level position or will not be willing to commit to staying in the more entry level position for a specified amount of time, the candidate will not be happy in the position and the company will not benefit from the candidate being employed.
Magdalena’s point is that there may be differences in other industries, which is certainly a valid point.
Please do refer to my original response to see situations in which I would consider an overqualified applicant. Please also note that you are going to get different views from each of the panelists here and there is some subjectivity to our answers – that’s why there are four of us!
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Question from C.R.
If I can add a footnote to Wendy's question, I'm curious as to how the decision is made about whether to do a full search for a position or whether to use a temp/placement agency. After an extremely frustrating two months of being told I was "overqualified" for a lot of positions I really wanted -- it's amazing how nobody really trusts me when I say I honestly don't mind filing! -- I finally got some good luck, oddly, by getting temped out to a place that almost certainly would have turned me down if I had applied "directly." Whether this job turns into something bigger remains to be seen, but the possibility would not have even opened up otherwise and I'm grateful for it.
Anyway, it seems that this organization had been making some tough decisions about whether to post the job or look to a placement agency for their staffing. So when Wendy asked about the investments that an institution makes when embarking on a job search, I wonder when exactly the steep fees charged by placement agencies/temp agencies/headhunters are worth it and when they're not.
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Response from Lauren
It can be difficult to convince an employer that you are willing and excited to do a job for which you are ‘overqualified’. C.R., the manner in which you got into your current position can definitely be a successful way to do so. As I said in an earlier thread, consider working with a recruiting agency – they can be your best advocate!
In terms of an employer making the decision to use job postings and/or agencies, it really depends on the company, the budget, the needs of the position and the style of the recruiter/hiring manager. Some employers go straight to agencies for hiring needs, others will try to fill positions themselves and turn to an agency only as a last resort. The same goes for posting to job boards.
In my current position, I utilize an agency if I am looking for a special skill or a tough to fill occupation. I also have contracts with a number of job boards to which I post jobs regularly.
A great site for finding jobs from a lot of job boards AND company websites is www.indeed.com. They do a Google-type search based on your keywords and can pick up some positions that you won’t find anywhere else.
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Response from Elaine
I have no problem hiring an overqualified person for a position…but the applicant has to understand that THIS is the position we are hiring for and they are applying/interviewing for – not the position 10 steps down the road. THIS is the salary, THESE are the responsibilities. Yes, there is room to grow, but you will be in this position for (at the least) a year, and you will still have to prove yourself to move up. If they respond with, “heck yes, I’m 100% excited to get started and see where I can go from there.” Then, perfect, if they continue to bring up where they would “like” to be and how fast they can get there...then we probably don’t have a fit.
I’m ok with desperation…it breeds creativity and drive!
Overqualified = too old?
Question from P.R.
How does age fit into this picture? I have heard it suggested that "overqualified" can also be used at times as a euphemism for "too old"? How much does age influence recruiters willingness to hire an "overqualified" person? For example, what if a 40-year old PhD is applying for a position that could be filled with a 25-year-old Master's degree student?
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Response from Lauren
Ahh, the age old age question (pun intended)…
There is a fine line between a candidate who is ‘too old’ and one who is ‘overqualified’…in the 80s and 90s this was a huge issue in the workplace and there have been many lawsuits surrounding incidents of alleged age discrimination. According to the ADEA (Age Discrimination in Employment Act) it is illegal for an employer to make any type of employment decision (hiring, promotion, pay, termination, etc.) based on age. This act only protects employees/candidates over the age of 40.
Having joined the HR world after the influx of age discrimination lawsuits, I know that companies are much more aware of and sensitive to the issue of age. I very rarely, if at all, hear age come into the equation when discussing candidates with hiring managers. That said, it wouldn’t be a law if there weren’t problems. If you feel you’ve been discriminated against based on your age, or any other protected group, you should contact your local EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission). This government agency acts as an advocate for fair employment and mediates cases of alleged discrimination before they go to court. www.eeoc.gov.
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Question from D.W.
I am moving from one career to one in the cultural heritage field and am looking for stable, full-time employment. How would HR typically respond to a resume of someone who is 55, even if age discrimination is not supposed to come into play? I plan to work for a very long time - at least 20 more years or longer! A prospective employer might be looking at 55 as too close retirement - not be starting out a new career field.
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Question from F.R.
I'm currently reading a book geared toward academics seeking employment outside the academy. The authors note that employers look more favorably on applicants with work experience outside of academia (even if it's basic office work) over those who have spent their entire lives in universities. I do have a variety of work experience--from temporary office jobs, to retail, food service, and social service positions, but I haven't listed them on my resumes in recent years because I've confined my work history to the past fifteen years (which includes only academic employment). The concern I have is that including dates of earlier employment will highlight my age, and may even make me look older than I am, since I graduated from college and entered the work force at an early age. I wonder if the guest speakers could offer suggestions on how to best handle this? (I use a skill-based resume with a chronological summary of work experience toward the end.)
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Costs of employee turnover
Question from M.Z.
Based on Maureen's responses to our guest speaker comment about not wanting to hire someone looking for an interim, temporary job (see below) ....perhaps our guest speakers could comment on the cost of turn over to employers.
Helpful in finding a position is to understand and even empathize with the needs of "the other side."
I've read somewhere that it works out to about one year's salary for each professional turn over, not to mention team and departmental disruptions from people coming and going. I would think that even in tough economic times, it is essential that they find the right person who is a good long term fit for the company or organization.
So, what are the financial and non-financial costs to companies of hiring someone who doesn't work out?
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Response from Lauren
I’ve heard many schools of thought on how much it costs to replace an employee, Wendy’s being one of them. I’ve heard anywhere from $6,000 per replacement to an entire year’s salary. Based on the subjectivity of what the ‘worth’ of time and energy are, I don’t know the hard cost of replacing an employee, but I do see the incredible effort it takes to find the right person, get them acclimated, get the department (subordinates, peers, and managers) acclimated to them and then for them to actually become productive. The better the long term fit can be determined before hire, the better the chances of a longer term of employment.
High turnover is also a morale buster for the remaining employees.
Working with headhunters
Question from B.R.
My questions are mostly for Elaine. When I was on the job market, I thought about (and sent out tentative feelers for) using a headhunter but found myself very confused (despite talking to a family friend who is a headhunter) about how to go about using a headhunter. I found it impossible to get a recommendation for a local headhunter and had no idea how to find one who worked in an industry I was interested in/qualified for. My questions for you are:
How do you go about finding a headhunter to work with who places people in your field (are headhunters listed in the phone book and, if so, under what, for example)?
If you do not have a referral, how do you get your foot in the door? On a very basic level, I had no idea how to approach a company - do you treat the headhunter like an employer with whom you are applying for a job (how do you say in a cover letter - I want you to help me find a job) or as someone who is, in some ways, working for you?
Finally, coming out of about 10 years of working as a research scientist in academia, I felt completely out of my depth in trying to find and work with a headhunter. I could only find one person who had used a headhunter and the headhunter had approached her rather than the other way around so she wasn't really able to help me (and even though she referred me to the woman she had worked with, that person was so unhelpful that I'm not sure I would even recommend her to someone looking for a position in my friend's field). None of the resources I could find seemed to provide even the most basic information so any of the seemingly most simple information would be helpful.
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Response from Elaine:
In terms of locating headhunters/agencies one could always look in the yellow pages, but I would search on-line and ask friends and colleagues who they would recommend as either an employer or employee. I will list a few for you here but again, these are fairly higher level and tend to focus in certain areas, but may be able to help: Mergis Group: 786-301-1520, Ken Liner & Assoc: 301-933-8800, AKG Consulting, McCormick Group, Rainfield Group, Sapphire Technology, Thompson Technology, etc. Call and explain your background, that you are looking for representation and they will let you know if they focus on your area – if they don’t I would ask for a recommendation to another agency who may be able to help you better. Another great way to find agencies, is to do a search on Monster, find jobs in your industry see what the companies/agencies are that are posting those jobs and follow-up.
Unless you are doing a temp-to-hire, I would treat the headhunter like he/she is your representative to a company – they are there to sell you, your experience and your potential to do great things for this company. They will set-up your interviews, negotiate salary and compensation on your behalf. They should and most often do have your best interests at heart – because after all…you are their commodity.
Working as a headhunter or HR professional
Question from A.W.
I am also wondering, at the risk of going beyond the allowed boundaries of this discussion, how one ends up working in HR or as a headhunter.
And forgive me if I'm ignorant here, but is there a degree in HR, or are there diverse trajectories that lead to this field? In sum, what are usually the qualifications of an HR person?
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Answer from Lauren:
There are undergrad degrees that are business degrees but have an HR focus and, while I'm not certain which schools specifically have it, there is an undergraduate Bachelor of Arts in HR. You can definitely get a Master's in HR or an MBA with a concentration in HR. Many companies will look for candidates with HR backgrounds and/or related degrees. That said, my bachelor's degree is in Psychology and before I got into HR I was an accountant and then a sales rep. So, no, you don't necessarily have to have an HR/business related degree to get into HR.
If you are interested in a career in HR, a recruiting agency can be a good advocate for you. In addition, HR Administrator and Coordinator positions (the more entry level) may simply require a number of years of professional experience and transferable skills.
A couple of websites that focus specifically on HR jobs are www.shrm.org and www.workforce.com.
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Response from Angela
Human Resources positions in the Federal government don't require a degree, but there are many HR employees who hold degrees in such things as Business Administration and Management, Organizational Development and Workforce Analysis, to name just a few. Applicants who have an interest in obtaining a position in administration often migrate to positions in Human Resources.
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Federal H.R. practices
Question from P.L.
Hi all. I have a question about the federal HR resume review process.
I am trying to help a friend shift careers from academic/humanities into a federal business-related field, but we're having a heck of a time.
She has undergrad and graduate humanities degrees plus a modicum of specifically related experience. She's applied for at least five GS-7 positions in the field and has been told by HR offices several times that she didn't meet the minimum qualifications in order to send her resume forward to the appropriate offices for interviews. I happen to know that the minimum qualification in the field at the GS-7 level is simply a bachelors degree. Can someone shed some light on the best way to present her information for federal HR offices? Also – just curious, do you know if federal HR offices use scanning software that only look for particular words or phrases, etc.? I'm trying to figure out how someone so seemingly qualified could be blocked by HR multiple times.
Thanks so much for holding this discussion!
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Question from D.B.
I have been applying for jobs mostly in the Washington, D.C. metro for the last two years, while working part-time jobs, pursuing distance education certification, moving up to more supervisory roles, and working on an internship from Pennsylvania. I admit my wait is taking longer than I could imagine. My questions are concerning federal positions.
I have applied with several agencies, particularly for positions I feel would be both a good fit and also a great learning experience for me. I am not looking to job hop, nor for relocation to be paid for. Likewise, I am being selective and am only applying for typical GS 5-9 positions for the most part, not trying to jump into a higher level than I could realistically aspire to with only 50 graduate credit hours.
However, despite a masters in my discipline and credentials, I have my applications go slowly through received, to passed to hiring agents, up through you have been referred to a selecting official, and then, nothing at all. More often than not, there is no notification and the job eventually is reposted. I understand if applicants are not found to be adequate or if it is a long-term opening as is the case for applicant pools, but some of these have in recent rounds gone straight to selecting officials before the deadline for applications.
Are there some agencies that have a higher-than-average turnover rate for HR officials that could be contributing to the lag time? The only answers I have received are that decisions can come months after the closing of positions, yet even then, an actual email is a rarity and it seems that just one of the agencies does follow through with some consistency. Only one time was I actually ever given a score on my application; the other times it was that the decision is based on education and experience, we'll get back to you.
I have no baseline to know what the competition's like for positions, so even if it's off-listserv any insight would be most certainly welcome. Also, any advice on how to get from the sent to selecting official to actually getting an interview request would be greatly appreciated. Some of these positions I have applied for time and again, because I really am quite interested, but I am wondering the practicality of this.
Also, is it better if someone applies to more agencies or focus on a few as I have as I have a strong desire and experience I feel could be most useful to a few? My friends who have federal positions seemed to have dumped applications into multiple agencies and had to select, but maybe the time I invested in graduate school also marked a change in hiring and less opening hiring possibilities. I seem to have more luck with part-time adjunct positions (even outside the disciplines I studied in college), but my heart's more with federal employment and working more closely what I studied in college.
Thank you for your time and cooperation, and I look forward to learning a lot more about the HR process as the week goes onward.
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Response from Angela
Thanks so much for your question.
All federal positions have qualification standards that help determine which applicants are more likely to perform satisfactorily in the position to be filled. The education, training, experience, or other requirements included in the qualification standards are often referred to as minimum qualifications, In most cases, the minimum qualifications also include information pertaining to specialized experience that provides more specific information about the type of skills the position requires.
Specialized experience is experience that has equipped the applicant with the particular knowledge, skills, and abilities to perform successfully the duties of the position and is typically in or related to the work of the position to be filled. While a bachelor's degree generally qualifies an applicant for GS-7 positions, most positions also require some specialized experience. It sounds as if your friend may have not qualified based on their lack of specialized experience. Its difficult to say for sure without having the specifics of what was contained in the vacancy announcement.
There are a number of programs within the federal government that are geared towards assisting college graduates in obtaining federal employment.
The Federal Career Intern Program is designed to help agencies attract and recruit exceptional individuals into a variety of positions. It is intended for positions at grade levels GS-5, 7, and 9. In general, individuals are appointed to a 2-year internship. Upon successful completion of the internship, the interns may be eligible for permanent placement within an agency.
The Presidential Management Fellows program (formerly known as the Presidential Management Intern Program) is designed to attract outstanding men and women from a variety of academic disciplines who have a clear interest in, and commitment to, a career in the analysis and management of public policies and programs. There is a very detailed screening processed administered by the Office of Personnel Management. Agencies select applicants for a 2-year internship and the initial appointment is generally made at the GS-9 level. Employees who successfully complete the 2-year program may be eligible for permanent placement within an agency.
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Response from Angela
In response to the second part of your inquiry, while many agencies utilize an automated system to screen applications, I highly doubt that there is screening software that only looks for particular words or phrases.
Automated systems often rate applicants on their answers and the systems are often set up in a manner that will rate applications "ineligible" if responses aren't consistent with other questions previously addressed.
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Response from Angela
The Washington DC area is a great place to look for a federal position.
There are numerous federal agencies in this area and I'd recommend that you apply to any agency that has a position for which you qualify.
While I don't have statistical information available about turnover rates for HR officials, I can say through experience that HR positions often take an inordinate amount of time to fill. When budget issues arise, jobs of an administrative nature are often placed on hold and filling them sometimes takes a year or more. I've heard many horror stories where HR vacancies have been unfilled for up to three years!!
All agencies are required to notify applicants of the disposition of their application; however, this is not a policy that is enforced. Most HR offices have severe staffing shortages and in most cases they just don't have the resources to notify applicants of the status of their applications. Competition for federal jobs has increased significantly over the past several months. Unfortunately there is no clear cut method that increases your chances of getting from the "sent to selecting official to actually getting an interview". I would suggest that you contact the HR Specialist responsible for the advertised vacancy to ask what you might do to improve your application submission. Some are certainly more candid than others, but its a good place to start. You just might get lucky.
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Questions from B.S.
To add to Alison's questions, I have a few additional queries about the federal hiring process -- I guess these questions are really for Angela:
1. Timetable: (I think this may have been covered, but I may have missed it): What would be a typical turnaround from "close of position" date to hiring decision? Two months? Six months?
2. Application review process: Can you explain, in a step-by-step way, what happens to the applications after they arrive? Who sees them first, and what are their qualifications/expertise? When does the "scoring" occur, and who does this? What is the initial scoring based on? And at what point would someone with subject/content expertise see the application? When would the hiring manager see it? We have had many discussions on this list about KSAs and the various audiences that they must appeal to, but I must say I really still don't understand the application review process and the relative role of a "gatekeeper" without much knowledge of the content of the work. There is a widespread fear out there that the gatekeepers, not knowing the subject area, tend to prevent qualified applications from going forward (and I do know that this occurred with a state job that I once applied for), but maybe you can clarify this for us.
3. Hiring official protocol: If one knows who the hiring official is, is it improper for the applicant to contact him or her to either (a) inquire about the position before applying, or (b) inform the person that one has applied for it? I was once told that there were strict rules that there was to be no contact between an applicant and the hiring official, and this surprised me . . . it certainly wasn't anything that I saw mentioned on the USAJobs website.
4. Hiring official prerogative to review particular applications: If the hiring official knows that a particular person has submitted an application, can that person request that application to be sent forward for his/her regardless of what the initial screening might conclude?
As I mentioned above, I once applied for a job in a state agency here in North Carolina which, among other things, required a degree in [various social science fields listed] "or related field." My degree was in history, which I certainly thought related to all of those that were listed. Yet, I learned after submitting *four* applications for various iterations of this particular job and getting marked "not qualified" every time, that the hiring gatekeeper actually had a *list* of what the acceptable "related fields" were, and history wasn't on that list. And that's as far as the gatekeeper went -- did not read the rest of my application, which would have clearly indicated that I did have relevant training and experience to the duties of the job. At long last, I made contact with someone behind the scenes in the actual hiring office and they were able to arrange an interview. I didn't get the job, but I did learn a lot in the process about how this worked at the state level. So that makes me wonder about the federal process. Thanks for any insights you can offer.
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Response from Angela
In response to the questions about federal hiring:
1. The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) developed a 45 day hiring model that covers the steps of the federal hiring process. Government agencies are encouraged to utilize this model when filling federal positions. The 45 day period begins at the close of the vacancy announcement and ends when a job offer has been extended. Please note that this is a hiring model and that the length of time involved in filling a position can change based on a number of factors.
2. There are a number of steps involved in filling federal positions.
I'll outline the steps beginning with the closing of the vacancy announcement.
Step 1: Vacancy Announcement Closes
Step 2: Minimum qualification determination - An HR official reviews the applications against the qualification standards to determine who is eligible for further consideration. The HR official may not be a subject matter expert but has enough knowledge and experience to interpret the qualification standards to determine which applicants are qualified.
Step 3: Rating & Ranking - A panel of subject matter experts meets to review the qualified applications. Each of the subject matter experts must know the job requirements and in most cases has served in the field, performing the work. This is where the scoring takes place. Applications are scored based on pre-established criteria found in the crediting plan.
In general terms, crediting plans define the job elements, levels of ability within these elements, includes work examples and descriptions and includes point values for varying levels of experience, education and/or training.
Step 4: Certificate of Eligibles - After the panel has scored the applications, the HR official prepares the list of candidates who will be referred to the hiring official. The rating panel or HR official determines the "cut-off score" and all applicants who meet or exceed the "cut-off score" are referred for further consideration.
Step 5: Hiring Official Conducts Interviews
Step 6: Hiring Official Conducts Reference Checks
Step 7: Selection is made
Step 8: Security clearance is initiated; drug testing or any other
pre-employment procedures take place.
While there aren't a lot of steps involved here, there are a number of factors that add delays to our timelines. Based on the number of applications received, an HR official may take 2 - 3 weeks or even longer to determine which candidates meet the minimum qualifications. HR officials screen the applications first and I guess they are the folks you refer to as "gatekeepers". It is important for applicants to include enough information for an HR official to make a favorable determination.
Any qualifying information needs to be easily identified and thoroughly explained. If the qualifying information is not readily available, an applicant can be disqualified. It is the responsibility of the applicant to submit an application that addresses all the information requested in the vacancy announcement. The federal hiring process requires applicants to be very detail oriented. Many candidates are rated not qualified because they fail to provide all the information requested. Its difficult to call applicants and ask them to send in omitted information when there are 30 other applications or more to review. Its not a requirement and most HR officials will find the applicant ineligible. In the event that you are found not qualified and you believe that you are, you may contact the HR official to make your case. If no selection has been made or if the panel is still rating applications, there is a chance that your application can now be rated, if the HR official finds you eligible based on how well you present your case. As an applicant, you have the right to request the reasons why your application was rated ineligible and HR officials have an obligation to provide you with that information.
3. I am not aware of any statute, rule or regulation that prohibits an applicant or potential applicant from contacting the hiring official. Most hiring officials aren't subject matter experts in personnel matters and therefore might not be well versed in what type of information should be shared with applicants. This is probably why most people believe it is inappropriate to discuss any aspect of the application process with the hiring official.
4. Hiring officials who know that a certain applicant has submitted an application should not contact the HR official to request the application, nor would an HR official provide it in this manner. All applications are referred to the hiring official simultaneously via the certificate of eligibles. Only those applicants who meet the "cut-off score" are referred.
The Office of Personnel Management establishes the positive education requirements for the various occupational series that require formal education. Our guidance lists the specific degree fields and any related field that meet the criteria. Our guidance is very specific and based on what you've shared, I am surprised that you were eventually found qualified. If the degree you reference isn't on our list of degrees an/or related fields, normally you would be found not qualified. Thanks for your question and I hope that this has helped to clear up the mysteries behind applying for federal positions.
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Questions from O.R.
I have two quick questions for Angela about federal job applications.
1. I am applying for a job that is listed as a GS-11/12. I know that I would not be especially qualified as a GS-12 because I have not yet finished my PhD, although I do meet the minimal requirements for a
GS-12 as listed in the ad. The application asks me to check off if I'd like to apply as a GS-11, GS-12, or both.
Is there any harm in checking off both GS-11 and 12? That is, if I did that as opposed to checking off just GS-11, would my entire application look worse because I probably shouldn't be a 12? Or is this question asked to rule out applicants who will only consider the higher pay grade when they are only qualified for the lower pay grade?
2. When school transcripts are required as part of a federal application, is it okay to send unofficial transcripts? I assume the answer is no but I figured I'd ask!
Thanks! Your advice has been very useful throughout this discussion.
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Response from Angela
There is no harm in requesting consideration for both the GS-11 and GS-12 positions. HR officials use this to determine the lowest grade that an applicant will accept.
You may include an unofficial transcript at the time you submit your application, but if you are selected for a position, you will have to provide an official transcript before you may begin employment.
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Questions from D.B.
Hi all. Once again, I would like to thank WRK4US and the panelists, because this has been an enlightening week, and I know you all are busy with things, yet considerate enough to follow through with all these excellent questions being asked.
I read over all the responses, particularly the federal job ones and still have some questions remaining.
1) I had found that 45-day model online ages ago, and I think only one position I applied for fell close to that in terms of the job position being closed and final notifications going through, but seeing it again reminded me of something. With regards to the cut-off point, I know for a lot of positions a score of 70 is considered the lowest point, 80 is better, and 90+ scores are considered better qualified. For the list that goes to selecting official, is it just everyone who goes into the applicant pool with a score of 70 or more, or are the applicants' lists narrowed down to the top 5/10/20/50 total. Just trying to see if it's more that I am referred to the selecting official somewhere in the middle of a large referred pool, or not.
2) I had stayed away from contact with HR agents for a while because it really seemed on USAJobs that contact with status updates/requests for information on completed applications was highly frowned upon. However, more recently, I have contacted HR representatives and I get prompt emails yet no details. One position was in consideration for 90 days, so when I first emailed the response was there is still time for consideration. When I had heard nothing, and my status on USAJobs had sat at referred to selecting official for an extended time and those 90 days had passed, I followed up, as this is a position I have repeatedly applied every time I see it posted. The response was I think that has been closed, do not know if anyone was interviewed, no scores were given; it was only based on education and experience, and apply again when this position is reposted. My question is, is there another suggestion to find anything more out?
Thanks for your time and cooperation and all of the insight you all have provided this week.
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Response from Angela
The cut-off scores can vary and it usually depends on the number of qualified applicants that were received. It is important to ensure that the hiring official has a reasonable number of candidates from which to make a selection. Generally scores of 90 and above get referred, however if there were say only two candidates with a score of 90, one might refer additional candidates with lower scores. If there are numerous candidates who scored 90 or above, then perhaps only the top 10 candidates are referred. It just depends.
There isn't much consistency in how agencies reply to status inquiries.
Those agencies utilizing an automated hiring system generally are pretty good in providing updates. The problem here, is just that the update is probably a very generic response. If you can get a human being on the phone who knows their job, you'll fare a lot better in getting a straight forward answer regarding the status of your application. You can always submit something in writing regarding the status of your application and should expect to receive a written response. This probably provides the most information, but it may take some time to receive a response.
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Federal jobs & veterans’ preference
Question from P.L.
This question wasn't lost in the shuffle, but since I'm going through this both as a manager trying to hire people and as a friend trying to guide someone through the process elsewhere I'd love some additional insight. Can Angela please comment on the issue of veterans' preference for non-feds trying to get federal jobs? My own experience has been very frustrating lately, with good qualified candidates being blocked by veterans whom our HR office deems qualified but who, in actuality, aren't the best fit for the job. (Some veterans are good fits, of course, but it rarely has anything to do with what their military experience.) In those cases where the veterans are not well qualified, we end up having to return a whole list of otherwise qualified applicants because the veteran on the list isn't someone we want to hire, and we can't hire anyone else unless we hire the veteran.
Thoughts/observations/suggestions?
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Response from Angela
Many hiring officials share your sentiments when it comes to the subject of veterans' preference. Congress enacted laws to provide preferences to veterans in recognition of their sacrifice and contributions to our Armed Forces. Eligible veterans receive many advantages in Federal employment but the veteran's preference laws do not guarantee the veteran a job.
There are a couple of options hiring officials may exercise if a veteran is prohibiting them from reaching a desired candidate. A manager may work with their HR manager to initiate a passover request. Through this process hiring officials may request to remove a veteran from consideration.
Objections of this nature must be based on specific reasons, but some of the more common ones include: age, education, experience, submission of false statements and security clearances. While I don't have statistical data, many passover requests are sustained, allowing the veteran to be omitted from consideration; thus, bringing the desired candidate within reach.
Often times HR officials work with the hiring official to make use of selective placement factors. There are some positions where specific qualifications are absolutely required to ensure a person can perform the duties of the position successfully. These might include specific licenses or certifications. A selective placement factor becomes part of the minimum requirements for a position and applicants who do not meet the criteria (in lots of cases, your veterans) are ineligible for further consideration. While neither of these options is foolproof, agencies have used them to reach desired candidates who were previously blocked by a veteran.
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Response from S.Q.
As a veteran, I want to add a few points. that the preference certainly does not guarantee a job. Not at all. Second, not all veterans are created equal. Those who served from 1975-1991 (post-Vietnam or non-campaign veterans) and do not have a service connected disability (SCD) do not qualify for a preference for federal jobs, even in the VA system. No points whatsoever. At other levels of government, it varies by state, county, and municipality whether or not a non-campaign veteran with no SCD is given preference. And less than 2% of the US population are veterans, so it's hard to believe that the competition is that stiff.
One other thing. I and other enlisted veterans have encountered some stigma in the workplace, especially in fields that require graduate education. Since this is not the place to discuss that, I leave it there.
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USAJOBS website
Question from M.N.
I have a question for our panelist who works for the federal government:
Can you provide any insight and/or tips regarding the USAJOBS website? Many federal jobs require one to apply through the site. I have two main concerns:
(1) What happens to the electronic application after I submit it? Does a human look at it, or are they all scanned by computer first for certain keywords? If it is scanned, can you provide any tips as to how to maximize my chances that a human looks at my application?
(2) Like many subscribers to this listserv, I have a skill set that can be applied to a number of different jobs, but it takes a little explaining to show the fit. These electronic federal applications tend to be quite rigid and specific in the information they request, not providing an opportunity offer such an explanation. For example, if you don't have x years doing y job, you are not considered qualified. Is there a legitimate way around this apparent obstacle?
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Response from Angela
When applying to a federal job via an electronic means, your application isn't scanned for key words. The application is however rated, based on your response to certain questions. After the applications are reviewed through the electronic process, an HR professional reviews the qualified applications to ensure that they have been properly scored. If you are found ineligible, your application is rarely reviewed by anyone else. In terms of tips that would increase your chances that your application will be reviewed by HR, it is important to read through the entire announcement for the position you are applying for. Be honest with yourself about whether or not you have the experience to perform the work required for the position. I believe that many applicants breeze through the questions associated with the vacancies and over-exaggerate their experience.
Most positions posted through USAJobs require you to provide specific information about your experience and require you to identify it on your resume. You'd be amazed at the number of applicants who fail to follow these guidelines. If qualifying information is not readily available on your application, it is easier to omit the applicant from consideration than to dig through the application package to find the information. Many of the electronic applications also allow you to submit a narrative to support your responses to the questions. It is important to address all requests for narratives.
Federal positions have specific requirements that must be met in order for applicants to be considered qualified. While you may believe that you can perform the work, the qualification standards established for many federal jobs are very specific regarding the level of experience that one must have. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get around this requirement.
My best recommendation would be to carefully review "all the fine print" in the vacancy announcement and to be honest with yourself about your experience. While you may believe you can perform the duties of the position, many HR professionals in the federal government interpret the qualification standards in a very conservative manner and it is easier to disqualify an applicant than it is to qualify them.
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Applying on-line
Question from O.P.
I have a question about applying to corporations via career web sites. I am looking for a position outside of the academy after working in higher education for over a decade (I have a PHD in history and American studies). I have applied to several large corporations via their recruitment web sites and I am frustrated with the limitations of the process. Sometimes you merely submit a resume, sometimes there is an opportunity to submit a cover letter and resume, and sometimes I have seen requests for writing samples with no obvious mechanism to submit them. Sometimes I can’t find a contact email or phone number to follow up my application with a question. (I’m applying for communications and technical communications positions.)
My questions are: is every submitted resume looked at by a human being? How do you recommend following up when you feel that you have missed a step in the application process (for example, the job description asks for writing samples but provides no email address). In this case, do you assume that you will be asked for samples if there is interest in your application? Would creating an online portfolio and putting that url on your letter and in your resume help to bridge the gap?
I’ve enlisted the help of a creative talent staffing agency, but continue to apply for jobs on my own. Any response about working with online hiring web sites is helpful.
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Response from Lauren
The online application – the best and worst thing that ever happened to recruiting.
Great things about the online application:
− Your application is sent to the right place, for the position of your choosing.
− You don’t have to worry that your resume got lost in the mail, buried on someone’s desk under paperwork or the company’s fax machine is out of receiving paper.
Not so great things about the online application:
− You don’t know WHERE your application went.
− There is nobody to contact to find out where your application went.
− Sometimes the posting asks for writing samples or cover letters but doesn’t provide a space for them.
− Setting up a URL with your personal writing samples, copy of your resume, etc. is a great idea if you’re tech savvy. I’m not that savvy.
I will tell you that we recruiters tend to hide ourselves pretty well. We want to have as streamlined a process as possible for accepting applications in order to ensure fairness. We also may not have the time to discuss a position in detail with the number of candidates that would like to discuss the position in detail. And, as Leatrice mentioned in a previous thread, sometimes people don’t handle having the recruiter/hiring manager’s information in hand with grace.
Your best bet is to follow the instructions given in the posting/on the application. Due to kinks in the systems, there may be times when you can’t find the place to attach the writing sample or the cover letter. I would try to note that somewhere on the application (if there is a comments section) or right on your resume (“I understand writing samples are a requirement for application, however the application system did not provide me an option to attach samples”). That way you are at least acknowledging that you understand the application requirements.
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Re-posted jobs
Question from C.R.
What is the DEAL with jobs getting re-posted over and over again on company websites? I apply for a job for which I think I'm well-qualified, I hear nothing for two months, and then the job simply gets posted again. I sometimes see jobs posted six or seven times in a row, with nothing changed but the application date. This is a weirdly common pattern.
Are these "real" jobs? If not, what are they? From my perspective on the outside, it seems very strange that these HR people would go through the trouble of writing up a job description and then keep cycling it over and over again with no intention of contacting candidates. Even if I'm not perfect for these jobs, I find it hard to believe that I'm worse than nothing in every single case!
More practically, should I keep applying, or should I just assume that they're not interested in me (or in anyone) and move on?
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Response from Lauren
I definitely understand your frustration with seeing the same position go up time after time. There are a couple of reasons this happens:
− They didn’t like any of the applicants they got the first time (frustrating for you because due to the automated process and the business practices of many recruiters, you will never hear that they disqualified you or why they disqualified you.
− They have multiples of this position and so it goes up on job boards fairly often.
− They hired the wrong person and terminated them/they left right away and the company needs to replace them already.
− They hired a person and realized they really needed two.
It doesn’t hurt for you to reapply – the company may have decided to pass on you, but all they need to do is click ‘no’ again. On the other hand, they may have had one of the situations above and maybe they found the right hire (or what they thought was the right hire but wasn’t) before they got to your application.
I have, on 2 occasions I can think of off the top of my head, hired candidates who came through the pipeline more than once. I have a coworker from my last company who carries his rejection letter from the company around in his wallet – he ended up being hired the second time around and has been with that company for 6+ years now! He still teases the recruiter who originally didn’t hire him!
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Moving from academe to administration
Question from J.K.
I am looking to make a move from a faculty position to an administrative position in higher education. Giving up tenure sounds pretty scary, especially when HR people have indicated that these types of positions are "one year" contracts. How do you ask questions about the "permanence" of the position without transmitting your hesitance to give up tenure. Are there any assumptions with one-year contracts such as being a great worker will guarantee your renewal?
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Journalism
Question from J.Z.
I'm curious how talent acquisition works in journalism. Would it be possible for Leatrice to tell us a little bit about how the application process works?
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Response from Leatrice
This is a good question. I must first say that many newspaper/media companies make a distinction between two key areas – Business and News/Editorial. The business side focuses on circulation, marketing, advertising, accounting, or anything that is not news. News/Editorial deals with the actual editorial content.
The recruitment processes for these two areas are typically different.
Recruiting for the business side is like most other companies. But I am gathering from your question that you may be more interested in the journalism track. The recruitment for this is different because the positions tend to be fewer. The process tends to initially focus on submitting your resume, cover letter, and published articles. Often times, individuals get in the field by taking internships (paid and unpaid). I would suggest looking at all media companies small and large and attempt to do freelance work with them. Some companies will not hire people immediately into these positions but are always looking for good freelancers or part-time copy editors. After articles get published, it is easier to work your way up to bigger companies and better positions. Don’t limit yourself to print publications; there are many internet media companies that are looking for good people.
I will admit that it can be a tough field to get into. This is truly a field that you must have documented proof of your work.
I hope this helps.
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Question from M.Q.
Thanks, Leatrice, for your suggestions on getting into journalism. Like Cathy, I'm interested in the field. Needless to say, I'm watching with great concern at what appears to be a continuing dismantling of many institutions in the field as we speak. Today for example I see that the Christian Science Monitor is abandoning print publication to focus on its online production.
So I'm curious: When you say it can be a tough field to break into (and here I'm talking about the writing side, not business/advertising), do you have any thoughts on what these breathtaking shifts will mean in terms of how people make a living at it? How much tougher is it going to get to break into the field, would you say? And assuming it is going to get even tougher to break in, do you see these shifts creating a greater advantage for those at the beginning of the process, the newly minted journalism grads with less life experience, or might it open up new opportunities for example for those trying to enter at mid-career who are bringing experience in other fields such as IT, languages, critical theory and writing in the humanities?
Thanks for any tips and again thanks to everyone for your time!
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Response from Leatrice
The great thing about the field is that it truly takes people at all levels in their career. I concur with your evaluation of the shift that is taking place in the industry. News/ journalism used to be a product that you held in your hand but now it can be something you pull up on your i-phone while zipping off to your next meeting. I don't necessarily think it will get any tougher. Like my previous comment, I think anyone interested in the field may have to look at what they deem as non- traditional types of employment. One could argue either way with advantages of a mid-career candidate or entry-level. It typically boils down to the position and what experience the person brings with them.
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Response from W.P.
Wow!! Something I can comment on-finally!!
I put myself on this list sometime ago—even after I got a tenure track job—because I didn't know how things were going. Well, I've been let go without cause as a probationary hire. Thankfully I was working some other angles.
I do some freelancing for a couple of sources—think unconventionally in terms of journalistic-find web sites that look for paid content writers—try local alternative news weeklies—get one of those writer's guides publication.
Look at publications you like and see if they are willing to work with new writers.
Good luck.
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Response from K.H.
I'll just echo W.P. (look beyond the daily papers), and add a few more points. Definitely look at weekly community papers; many of these are thriving, in contrast to dailies that are sagging and moving to a more Web-based format (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Community papers are a different animal. They tend to have a more narrow focus (little to no AP content) but can be oddly more inclusive, which makes them an excellent place to "get your foot in the door" in journalism. They also tend to be less picky about whether or not you have a degree in journalism, communications or English. Can you write?
Can you make a deadline? Can you accept direction and constructive criticism? These are the questions that are likely going to be more important.
If there are one or two in your area, check out back issues and see where they focus most of their attention. This will give you some idea of what they'll be looking for in terms of submitted editorial content.
The next step is to talk to the editor about what s/he will accept.
They might need something specific or they might be more flexible and, depending on the paper, they might offer to let you write an ongoing op-ed column.
Be forewarned—you probably will not get paid for doing this. Many weeklies need submissions (the weekly I work for would never be able to cover youth/school sports without them), but do not have the budget to pay freelance writers and photographers. However, if the paper publishes your work, it puts your name out there and gives you something to put in your portfolio. Being a known contributing writer or photographer may also net you a press pass, and the networking possibilities are better than you might think.
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Question from J.Z.
Leatrice wrote:
Some companies will not hire people immediately into these positions but are always looking for good freelancers or part-time copy editors. After articles get published, it is easier to work your way up to bigger companies and better positions. Don’t limit yourself to print publications; there are many internet media companies that are looking for good people. --
How would you suggest moving up to bigger companies? Are magazines a totally different career track than newspapers? Can a writer switch from news to features, or is that not a usual career trajectory?
I ask because while I have a job that I love (as a staff news writer for a magazine that is distributed internationally), I do not have a communications or journalism background -- I have a PhD in history. Because I don't have a background in journalism, I don't really know how the field works and I'm very curious.
How many clips does one usually submit? Where are these types of jobs advertised? What kind of hours would someone writing for a newspaper have, versus someone writing for a magazine?
Sorry for all the questions -- as you can see, I'm very curious!
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Response from Leatrice
I am not sure why you would want to look for something else if you love your job. As a reminder, I am giving you general comments and opinions. All companies can and do operate different. Unfortunately, I do not have experience working with a magazine; therefore, I can't comment on the career track difference or hours. Companies may tell you how many clips they are looking for but I would submit a few clips if they do not give an exact number. As with many careers their are no hard rules about switching from news to features. It depends on the person, their background, and where they see themselves in the future.
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Response from J.Z.
I just wanted to say that I'm not looking for a new job. I was just curious how the system worked because I know very little about the field and you had previously said that it was very easy to move up to bigger and bigger companies.
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Response from W.P.
Well Cathy there's a big debate over what value a journalism degree actually confers. Journalists are professional generalists and so a curious mind and an ability to write can trump a degree in journalism. Personally, I would say that your degree in history probably gives you the moxie to be that kind of generalist.
Like I said, I'm kind of re-evaluating things right now, after not having my tenure-track contract removed. Luckily, I had the foot-in-the-door with a metro news weekly and a left-of-center radio news service. I'm back knocking on doors.
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Response from S.M.
I have a Ph.D. in journalism, teach it at the college level and work in the field. There are a ton of journalism web sites to let you in on what's going on in the field. It's basically roiling, but lots of mainstream sites accept "citizen" journalism input now (Salon, Huffington Post), so it's a way to get started in the field. If you have an area of expertise, you can start a blog immediately and try to get it seen. Check out Technorati.com for help on this. I have links to many journalism sites on two of my blogs for my J school classes: www.nabobs.blogspot.com and www.doggedpursuit.blogspot.com. The links are on the right side. Two good ones are poynter.org and journerdism. Check out kcnn.org for tips on citizen journalism and studies giving overviews of the field.
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Transitioning from freelancing to permanent employment
Question from P.R.
I have worked for the last seven years as a freelancer, taking on research and writing projects. I am now seeking a full-time position. Would you be leery of hiring a person with such a background, and if so, why? Are there any ways I can allay concerns of future employers?
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Response from Lauren
In my industry (financial services) I work with a number of people who have spent time in the freelance/contractor world. That is becoming more and more common. In fact, it’s not even too strange to see a break from work altogether.
If you have concerns that an employer may not want to bring a freelancer on for a full time position, you may want to put the words ‘full time’ in your objective or cover letter. From a recruiting standpoint, I don’t look negatively on candidates who have freelanced/contracted if their experience is a match. Two questions you should be prepared to answer are, “Why are you looking to move from freelancing/contracting to a permanent position?” and “What do you think might be difficult about that transition?”.
In my experience, I’ve found some of the best employees in this type of candidate.
You may also be interested in contract to perm work, for which you would typically go through a recruiting agency.
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Question from L.N.
Hello, could you explain how the process works with a recruiting agency? How does one find an appropriate agency? For someone trying to "translate" an academic c.v. into an appropriate resume, can the agency help with language, or does their work begin only after you've figured out your self-presentation in a new field? Thank you.
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Exempt vs. non-exempt positions
Question from T.H.
I'd like to know how an HR professional categorize a position as an exempt or non-exempt? What do you use as your guidelines? Under what circumstances might you decide to re-categorize a position from non-exempt to exempt or the other way around (if this ever happens)?
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Response from Lauren
Exempt vs. Non-Exempt
The FLSA (Federal Labor Standards Act) has many, many, many rules and regulations surrounding how a position is categorized. When evaluating a position for exemption/non-exemption, there are ‘tests’ employers can run and questions they can pose (from FLSA regulations) to help determine a position’s status.
A position may be re-categorized if the job duties have changed enough to change the status of the position in question. For example, if your title is Project Coordinator and most of what you do is non-exempt work (in the simplest definition, non-exempt means your work is dependent on someone else telling you what to do and exempt means you determine the work that needs to be done within your position) but over time, you take on new projects, make them yours and don’t need supervision for 50% or more of your work, your position may be re-categorized.
Employers tend to be very cautious about how they categorize a position and the Department of Labor and Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (for federal contractors) take exemption status very seriously.
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Fair market value
Question from T.H.
I once heard from a recruiter that salary information on salary.com is slightly inflated. Do you agree with this statement? What resources do you use to determine if an employee is paid fairly to market value? If a position has a non-traditional title/job function, what resources could you recommend to us to find information on salary?
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Finding the hiring manager
Question from D.M.
I am so happy to have the opportunity to probe the "mysteries" of HR -- thank you so much for the opportunity. This question goes to any of the guest speakers.
I find that when writing my letter of interest (primarily to arts and cultural institutions), I am not always able to determine to whom specifically I should address my cover letter. While for some positions I can ascertain the "hiring manager" by perusing the website, several institutions offer no clues. Every time I have contacted HR to find out the hiring manager's name, I have been told to address the letter simply to "whomever this may concern". While I understand this from HR's point-of-view, every job-hunting handbook I have read since high school has reiterated the advice to address the letter to a specific person. I feel I am committing cover letter suicide every time I address my letter to "Dear Hiring Manager."
Tell me, am I being overly paranoid (which is highly likely during the job-hunting stress!)?
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Answer from Leatrice
I would not say that you are being overly paranoid but you are definitely more concerned about it than most hiring managers or HR professionals. The internet is both a blessing and a curse when it comes to recruiting - it allows you to research companies, find their exact location, and quickly obtain any contact information. While this is an asset to job-seekers, at times, it can be overwhelming when you attempting to hire people for your organization.
Companies do not provide this information for numerous reasons:
1. HR screens resumes and cover letters prior to giving them to hiring managers. Therefore, do you want to address it to HR or to the manager that may never see your information?
2. There are multiple hiring managers involved in the process so there is no one correct name to use.
3. After applicants obtain this information, they make a point of contacting the hiring managers for updates, feedback, etc. While I am sure you would be respectful of this informaion and follow any necessary processes, I could tell you horror stories about people who would not.
I believe the personalized thank you letter/email is much more important than the cover letter. You are more likely to get specific names when you are invited for a face-to-face interview. At that point, you should personalize your cover letter.
To put your mind at ease, I have never heard of someone not getting a position because the cover letter was not addressed to a specific individual.
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Length of cover letters
Question from A.W.
How do you all feel about the length of cover letters? Sometimes I find it difficult to strike a balance between wanting to provide a detailed description of my examples and keeping the letter to no more than half a page.
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Response from Leatrice
Half to three-quarter's of a page is a good length. Many people like to give examples but must realize that all of their great accomplishments are not relevant to the position. I would find the things that are most noteworthy and focus on that. Like resumes, I tend to peruse cover letters. If they don't peak my interest quickly, I will move on. I would hate to think that your best examples are at the end of a long cover letter and someone never took the time to read it. I would even argue that some hiring managers don't read them at all.
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Response from Lauren
In most cases, I would absolutely agree with Leatrice. The one area I can think of that may differ is in the case of a research position. At Calvert, being a sustainable and responsible investment firm, we have an entire department that specifically focuses on non-financial research and analysis. We have about 20 employees with expertise in areas such as environment, energy, water, human rights, indigenous people’s rights, corporate governance, workplace practices and more! When that department hires, they really look carefully at the cover letter and want to see what types of research projects the candidates have been involved in, what industries/sectors they have worked in, the diversity of their research, sometimes even who they have worked with (if it’s someone famous or well known in the industry). In a case in which the position description asks for very specific experience, I would create an extensive cover letter to explain the relevance of your skills and experience. If you are a researcher, you know that researchers LOVE to read and get in depth information. It’s the only exception to a cover letter philosophy I’ve ever encountered!
Additionally, if a posting asks for a cover letter and resume, ALWAYS submit a cover letter. Recruiters who receive volumes and volumes of candidates may be looking for easy ways to shrink the pool and ‘failure to follow application directions’ is an easy way to omit a number of candidates.
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Response from Angela
I think cover letters should be brief and to the point. Your resume or application should provide the details of your work experience.
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Length of resumes
Question from F.R.
That same book recommends keeping your resume to one page. Mine is currently two but has bold subject headings and lots of white space so that it can be quickly scanned. Any thoughts on whether a one page resume, more tightly formatted, is preferable to the kind of two page one that I describe? Including additional work experience obviously makes keeping a resume to one page even more difficult.
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Setting up interviews
Question from K.S.
I have a question about setting up interviews. I read a listserv posting where an HR person said if they called someone for an interview and the person said “I have a class/meeting, etc at that time” the HR person assumed that the candidate was not interested. However, I would think that it would show that you honor your obligations, can organize your time, and are a reliable person. I know I have lost out on some interviews because I honestly had an obligation I could not change, so I’m wondering, what does an HR person think when a candidate must negotiate for the interview slot?
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Response from Elaine
I’m sure it depends on the HR person. If I call someone to set-up an interview and they reply back with, “Can’t do that time” and say nothing else, I’m a little taken back. I understand you can’t do that time….then suggest times you are available. A great reply is, “ I’m not able to make that time, but I can meet, Wed at 12, 2 and 4 or Thursday at 3, 4 and 5.” Then you’ve given the HR representative back-up times that they can work with.
If the HR rep mentions that this is the only time they have available, then I would suggest thinking about if you can modify your schedule. (An executive is going to have very limited time in terms of scheduling) Remember the company is not only selling the position to you….but you are also selling yourself to the company.
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Response from Lauren
I would add to this that if you are currently working/in school full time (and during the ‘typical’ 8 am – 5 pm core hours of a business), you will need to concede to missing things at work/school on some occasions. Often, recruiters are willing to schedule phone interviews a little bit off hours to accommodate schedules, but executives, hiring managers and other interviewers will expect that you will come in during business hours. That said, you are typically not expected to completely rearrange your schedule to accommodate one specific time, but as Elaine said, show your flexibility by offering alternative times/days.
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Following up on interviews
Question from I.C.
My husband and I have a disagreement. I believe that following-up after an interview is important, as it shows that you are really interested, etc. My husband believes it to be a waste of time: if they are going to hire you, they are going to hire you. My husband hires people all of the time, and he usually ignores cover letters, resumes, etc. He does phone interviews with everyone HR forwards to him, decides then to either hire or to bring the person in, and then moves on.
My question is this, is this how many hiring managers approach things?
Do follow-up calls matter, or, is it the case that for the majority of decisions, the decision is made after the interview and candidates are wasting their time calling, writing letters, etc.?
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Response from Lauren
The art of the 'Thank You' seems to have been lost in recent years. I am always pleasantly surprised when I receive a thank you note (especially a handwritten one) from a candidate. From my perspective, I won't make a decision solely based on the presence or absence of a thank you note/follow up call. However, I have been influenced by a very poorly written thank you note and have been influenced by the over-follow-upper (once a week is PLENTY).
I don't ever think it's a waste of time - it does make an impression.
However, I don't think it typically makes or breaks the employer's decision.
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Response from Angela
I'd have to agree with your husband. Following up after an interview via phone call or thank you note is certainly good applicant etiquette, but it won't get you the job. Hiring decisions are usually made on the basis of the information contained in the resume or application and how well the applicant did during the interview.
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Getting feedback
Question from J.K.
Let's assume that I have applied for a position for which I am qualified, and have presented myself on paper/in person well. If I don't get an interview or an offer is there any possible way to learn what I might have done better? I realize that this opens a huge can of worms--and potential lawsuit if someone volunteers "The committee didn't like your tie/voice/name", but what if I didn't make a clear case of how my experiences have prepared me for this position? I have found that in telephone/campus interviews usually your response to questions get nods, smiles, or silence. Is there any possible way to discover how you might do better in future interviews other than guessing what those signals might mean?
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Response from Lauren
The unfortunate answer is that generally you don’t get feedback on your interviews. Most recruiters and hiring managers are trained not to disclose information related to why a candidate was not selected for a position. There is certainly somewhat of an issue that we don’t have time to talk to every candidate and tell them why they were not selected (and why would it be fair to tell some and not others?) and many companies have a policy against giving candidates feedback after an interview.
I'd suggest a couple of things for you:
* Contact a recruiting agency. They can be good for a couple of reasons - they can act as an advocate for you in 'selling' your skills to the hiring managers/HR at the various companies they work with AND they can give you interview feedback! HR and hiring managers are much more willing to give direct feedback to an agency/firm than to the candidate directly and agencies/firms will be more willing to give you that feedback.
* Go to monster.com or Google and search for sample interview questions. Take some time to go through interview questions and imagine what your answers might be. The hardest questions to answer are the ones that ask about your weaknesses, shortcomings or lack of experience in an area.
* The big downfall of a lot of interviews is that the interviewer has a concern that you haven't addressed. You may have the answer and it may be the answer they want to hear, but they may not ask the right questions. At the end of an interview (and this is a little gutsy…and I mentioned it in an earlier thread) ask, "What concerns do you have with putting me in this position?" The KEY is to have an answer. So if the interviewer says, "Well, Mr. Kleinshmidt, you've only been in academia. I'm concerned about you working in an office setting," your answer shouldn't be, "Good point, Ms. Interviewer." It should be something to combat that concern - something that makes it really not matter that you haven't worked in an office setting or something that makes it better that you have so much experience in academia.
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Question from E.M.
G.M. wrote: "As an applicant, you have the right to request the reasons why your application was rated ineligible and HR officials have an obligation to provide you with that information."
This was very interesting. It would appear, then, that a rejected applicant has a right to request feedback in in the public sector but not in the private and nonprofit sectors. Can the panelists confirm that, or have I oversimplified the case?
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Gaps in the resume
Question from G.A.
My question is about gaps in my resume. True to my sociological roots, I am always interested in meeting and learning about new people, which has led me to a slew of random, yet oddly fascinating, jobs. As a direct result my resume looks a bit suspect if I write down job dates and places...and even if I don't thanks to the bizarreness of it all. Among many other things, I have been a knitting instructor, research assistant, bookseller, farmhand and IT help desk consultant. I have learned so much over the years, but have lately been applying to jobs wanting something permanent that I can get stuck into and be a part of the office/department/organization.
I'm afraid I'm being totally ignored in the job application process because my resume isn't listed with dates and is varied, both jobwise and geographically. Since I look like such a flight risk thanks to my curious path, what can I do to prove to employers that I am looking for something long-term? Or is it already a lost cause and I should pack in any hope of having a long-term job? Although I do hear that they're always looking for people to gut fish in Alaska... :)
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Response from Elaine
I prefer to see any and all time filled in on a resume. Even if you were a stay at home mom/dad or decided to take a leave of absence due to a family illness – or gut fish in Alaska. At least I can account for where and what you’ve been doing. Most people understand that life happens.
A way to make it “sound better” is to group it. Pull out the jobs that relate to the position you are applying for and dive into depth…but for the other positions you can group the time, list the positions so we can see the time lapse – and move on to your other strengths.
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Question from D.W.
My earlier resumes tended to list everything, a practice I have since stopped. I now only list those that seem relevant to the job I seek. If a position is includes some job experience I had a long time ago, should I list it anyway - even if it may leave a 10 year gap?
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Question from W.A.
This is directed to any of the panelists:
How long is "too long" of a gap between employment? I resigned from my last job in August and had planned on taking a couple months off, which unfortunately coincided with the severe downturn in the economy. Financially, I can easily support myself for a few months without issue, but after how many months will this gap start to look suspicious to future potential employers? Alternatively, would it benefit me in the long term to take a position that is a step down or not ideal just to have a job, rather than waiting to find the right one? This is a concern because my past career history is a little spotty due to time spent abroad, though I have been working fairly steadily since completing graduate school.
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Response from Lauren
I don’t know if there is a ‘too long’ anymore. As Leatrice (or was it Elaine?) said in an earlier thread, just be able to explain your gaps. I have a friend who left her job and was able to take an entire year off between positions simply because she had been a good budgeter/saver over the years. I’d say that’s a fantastic gap to be able to have – to have planned well enough and have saved enough money to not have to work for a period of time.
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Question from F.R.
Another question I have has to do with gaps in employment history. Is it acceptable to include volunteer activities during that time period (like working on political campaigns--without mentioning the particular campaign, of course)? And my understanding based on previous comments that it's better to say something like: "Attended to personal matters that have since been resolved" rather than leaving a gap, even though that statement is quite vague? Or perhaps "family medical concerns that are now resolved"? Any thoughts on how to write a line that signals less of a red flag with such gaps would also be appreciated.
One side note: I recently had a job interview and the number one thing that surprised me is that they did not ask about the gap in my resume. I currently have nothing written to account for that time. They didn't seem concerned about it. My sister speculated that employers may not ask women about such gaps because it's common to take time off for child rearing I didn't get the job, but I imagine it had more to do with my performance in the interview than a gap in my resume.
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Question from S.Q.
I am recovering from a long term, disabling illness, which wrecked havoc on my professional career. The disability is not permanent, fortunately, but I have not been able to work for 18 months, and I am now unemployed. I do not qualify for SSDI or Medicaid, and besides more than anything, I want to work. Given the nature of my discipline, an academic career is out of the question.
What helps? I have had some part time work and temporary work (including cashiering for $7.50/hour), I've been volunteering. I've been picking up some courses here and there.
I have a PhD and a master's level professional degree.
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Response from Lauren
If you refer to Elaine’s response to the thread, “how to handle gaps in employment” I think you’ll find your answer. In terms of your disability, I would not mention it to employers unless you need some sort of accommodation (which is a question asked of all candidates on legally compliant applications…). If it is not relevant to the position itself, your potential employer does not necessarily need to know why you took a break from your career. If asked why you left the career track, you may simply respond “I had some personal matters to attend to, which have been resolved, and so I stepped out of the career track for X amount of time.”
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Internships and pay
Questions from P.A.
I am wondering what HR views as "work" in terms of paid hire? (Or if this helps to clarify: is there a clear guideline as to what constitutes work that should be paid for?)
Background: I am currently interning without pay with a large organization. I've committed myself for the rest of the year but recently have been finding it very, very difficult to live without income (I'm staying with a sibling who has a student loan). The work is specialized and I am extremely committed to the cause and plan on continue working at such an organization after I complete law school (which I am applying to this year). However, my current work is also scant sometimes. Since it is research/advocacy work, I have days of full-time work (i.e. I'm scramming to get something in by the evening), but other days it's just me continuing research on my own and not getting many requests to do anything in particular.
My question, therefore, is: do I have ethical premise to ask for pay even though my work with the organization is not full-load? I understand that full-time work can vary - i.e. people don't have to filling each second of their time with productivity -- but somehow I feel like it would be unethical for me to ask for the possibility of being paid? Note that I've been brought up in a country where my father would not receive his salary for months at a time and was afraid to ask for it each time, so I understand that there may be a cultural-psychological hindrance which prevents me from asking here. But I also don't want to seem like leechy to an organization I very much respect.
Secondary question: I am going to ask for minimum wage if I do ask. For a large organization operating around the world, would this seem "cheeky" of me to do, since none of their employees are paid that low? My request is sincere (i.e. I could definitely pay my half of the rent on a full-time, minimum wage), and it takes into consideration the financial restrictions the org. does have due to the recent financial crisis (they recently put out a hiring freeze, exceptions not included). Plus, I'd rather get minimum wage than no wage, at this point (considering I haven't received any replies on part-time odd jobs I've applied to).
Sorry for the long histoire and hope my questions are clear enough. Thank you so much to the panelists for your helpful replies to other questions in the discussion so far!
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Response from Lauren
The FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) helps employers define what constitutes paid employment. Without knowing the details of whether you are working in a for-profit, non-profit or government setting, it’s hard to say what the rules might be surrounding paid vs unpaid internships. I will say that companies are not generally quick to change an unpaid internship into a paid internship, however they have been known to turn internships into permanent positions.
It’s hard to say what your employer’s response will be because there are so many variables associated with your situation, but I always say it can’t hurt to ask!
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References
Question from D.W.
My other question has to do with recommendations and calls HR may make to associations.
I currently have a real problem with the local preservation group I volunteered for. I resigned a couple of years ago in large part due to the management of the organization and the president/director's unethical behavior. This same organization owns properties under the jurisdiction of the municipal preservation commission I chair. Due to various reasons - mostly political and self serving and the fact I won't let him write our reports - the president has become antagonistic towards me personally. He has threatened me with "you will not find work", "not associate with preservation people in town".... you get the picture. I know too much and it might hurt his personal political ambitions.
I have taken the organization off my resume. If HR called the municipality about the commission - they would find this guy is the "liaison" (he is a town councilor). If they call the state preservation organization - they would find this guy (a gubernatorial appointee). In applying for a state historic div. position (entry level) - I'm curiously ? not called - (this guy is a state commissioner, although different commission).
So.... how do I deal with this scenario on a resume or at an interview in trying to keep this guy out of the picture and without sounding like I'm complaining? The work I did do with the organization is relevant in many cases, and fills a gap in the resume besides.
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Response from Lauren
We all have them, past employers who you are so glad you no longer with with/for and hope you never, ever, ever have to interact with again. Ever.
My recommendations:
· Don’t list him/her as a reference anywhere
· If an application asks for supervisor name/contact information, type in "contact HR for employment verification" and give HR’s phone number. So many companies have a ‘neutral reference’ policy these days that the caller may be redirected to HR even if the supervisor was contacted
· Make sure you have other references that can cover what this particular reference would have covered (i.e. a different supervisor from a different organization AND a peer or subordinate from this organization)
· If it comes down to the recruiter/hiring manager saying ‘this is the guy/gal I want to contact’ I would say something to the effect of, “I’d really rather you not touch base with him/her. We had a great/fine/professional relationship when I was working/volunteering there, but there were some hard feelings when I decided to leave and he/she has indicated he/she prefers not to act as a reference for me. Instead, I’d like to have you call so-and-so who can act as a reference for me at that organization.” Just make sure so-and-so knows that and is willing to speak diplomatically when asked what happened between your supervisor and you
The catch:
· If we’re in a small town/tight community, and the hiring manager knows your former supervisor and even though you haven’t mentioned the former supervisor’s name at all, the hiring manager does his/her math and realizes you must have been there at the same time, there is nothing to stop him/her from contacting your former supervisor.
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Question from F.R.
At what point in the hiring process do employers check references? Do they do so while screening applicants for interviews, or after the interview? How extensive is the discussion with the person offering the reference?
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Response from Leatrice
References are typically checked after the interview. Employers do not want to spend time checking references on numerous candidates or people they will never hire. I usually don’t receive or ask for a list of the applicant’s references until I know they are a viable candidate.
References can and do get very detailed. I have asked questions regarding some concerns that arose during their interview process, challenges this person may face in the new position, and validated information the person told me about their performance. A good reference can not be underestimated.
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Qualifications, skills & technical knowledge
Question from R.C.
Now I have a question about the "required qualifications" in most job applications. If I am applying for a job that requires a degree in something specific like Communications or Public Relations, and I do not have that specific degree, is it still worth my/the company's time for me to apply? This is, of course, apart from those jobs that really do require a certain degree or certification, like accounting or psychology or any kind of legal profession.
How can a candidate get around the fact that she does not have the required degree, even if she probably has the necessary skills to do the job?
Also, I was wondering about technical skills: i.e., "proficiency in MS Office, Outlook," etc. What level of knowledge would be considered "proficiency" in terms of commercial computer applications? Honestly, if I go to Microsoft's website and take their online tutorial, can I say that I "know" the program, or do I need to have used it in a professional setting? If I haven't used a particular program, is there any problem with saying "I can learn it quickly"?
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Response from C.R.
I'm not one of the invited speakers, but I think I can say something about Gina's question because it is very relevant to my recent experience.
If I am applying for a job that requires a degree in something specific like Communications or Public Relations, and I do not have that specific degree, is it still worth my/the company's time for me to apply?
I have a Ph.D. in the humanities and several years of university-level teaching experience. After a major (and traumatic) life/career change I got a job in a Communications department. However, as I alluded in my earlier message, I am quite sure I wouldn't have gotten this job if a placement agency hadn't put me there. I applied for lots and lots of jobs in Communications before getting this one, and I never received any callbacks.
There could be any number of reasons for that, of course, and I'm glad to take responsibility for whatever I may have done "wrong" in the application process. Nevertheless, I think that one of the primary reasons nobody called was that a lot of people don't realize that academics learn a lot of the same skills that a graduate of a Communications (etc.) department are trained in. I got the impression that some HR people think that training for these sorts of positions only happens in very narrowly-defined ways. But of course I could just be sour-grapesing because nobody called me back!
Anyway, I'm doing pretty well in this job so far, and I haven't run across any work that I either didn't know how to do already or that I couldn't quickly pick up. But I only got a leg up because of a temp agency, to whom I was able to explain, vigorously and *in person*, why I could do it. The agency was then able to sell me to the organization that hired me. If you don't get an interview after applying directly for a job, you might not get that crucial chance.
If one of the guest speakers can explain how to make a letter or résumé more attractive on the applicant's end, I'd be grateful to hear it. But my experience suggests to me that a temp agency, placement agency, recruiter, or headhunter might help you get your foot in the door if the reader of résumés doesn't understand how broad an academic's skill set really is.
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“Selling” academic qualifications
Question from G.M.
C.R.’s post about having trouble getting prospective employers to recognize the value of the training one receives earning a Ph.D. in the humanities can be transferable to private sector or non-profit jobs gets to the heart of my own frustration with the job market. I expect this is the case with many members of this listserv. Perhaps the guest speakers could offer some advice on how we can best sell our experience in the academic world (researching, writing, teaching, and administration) in resumes and cover letters. Most job descriptions seem to be written so that the ideal hire is someone who has done that exact job in the past. For those of us coming from academia, we haven’t filled the precise position, but we do have an array of skills that would allow us to excel at the job. How can we make that clear to HR professionals?
In my particular case, I have a Ph.D. in history and several years teaching and carrying out research. I also have foreign language skills. I've been focusing on applying for jobs that involve writing and communications (grant writer, copywriter, etc. . . . ). Any advice would be appreciated.
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Question from W.J.
I would echo G.M. and C.R.'s posts. My position is exactly the same. I'm having trouble keeping my cover letters under a page because I feel like I have to:
1. narrate the reasons why I left academia.
2. translate my communication, writing, critical thinking and "managerial" (i.e. teaching) skills to a non-academic audience.
3. say a lot about the volunteer work I've been doing to acquire experience in non-profit administration.
I would love suggestions on how to make cover letters strong and still be able to get noticed by a hiring team.
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Question from G.M.
Academic cvs and resumes for other lines of work have little in common, so I think we have all designed resumes that try to highlight our skills as best we can. I create a separate resume for each job I apply for and make a point to emphasize skills and experience that relate to the job description. I use a resume structured around skills rather than the more standard chronogoical organization because I don't expect hiring managers to automatically see how my experience is relevant based on work history and education alone. What I've done has evidently been insufficient.
I've read career guides that discuss writing resumes around "measured acomplishments"--conveying in concrete terms the value you brought to your pevious employers. The examples always seem to focus on dollars brought in (sales figures, etc...). As an academic, I haven't generated profits, and I haven't yet figured out how to present my past work experience in terms of such "measured accomplishments."
Perhaps another way of asking my original question would be to turn it around. As HR professions, have you ever hired anyone from academia? How do you typically respond to resumes from people with advanced degrees and teaching rather than corporate experience? If you have hired former academics, how did those individuals express their qualifications in was that distinguished them from the resumes you reject?
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Response from H.R.
I'm not a panelist for this discussion and therefore can't answer your specific questions, but if you haven't already seen it, the book What Are You Going to Do With That (amazon link here:http://www.amazon.com/What-Are-You-Going-That/dp/0374526214) has a good chapter on cv-to-resume conversion.
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Response from B.R.
I also am not one of the speakers and I have not been able to find the website where I found this the first time before but a piece of advice that I heard (it might have even been an earlier post here at WRK4US) was to critically think about and list the skills that that getting a PhD and teaching require. So, teaching includes compiling information from multiple sources, summarizing that information, presenting the material (public speaking) to a diverse audience using visual aids and technology, setting evaluation criteria and evaluating individual performance, managing time, working within a deadline, etc. I know I've always had a hard time doing this so one way to approach it might be to look at the list of skills needed for a particular job and go back to academic experience to figure out where you needed that skill.
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Answer from Lauren
B.R. – I couldn’t have put it better myself. Sometimes when a recruiter or hiring manager looks at an academic resume, they simply don’t understand how the skills/experience can be transferable. On the flipside, if you can’t adjust your resume to sound more corporate/non-profit oriented, how can you convince a company you ‘get’ the needs of the job?
Just as you tweak your resume/cover letter for different positions you apply for, you also should tweak the tone of your resume/cover to best relate it to an office setting, if that is what you are looking for.
If I look at the example of myself, I have quite a background in training and development in a corporate setting. I may someday want to move to academia. If that’s the case, I will present my training experience much more in the light of education than in the light of business development.
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Response from Lauren
Great resource H.R.—G.M., in response to your questions:
CV vs Resume
You are correct that CVs and resumes differ in their need for types of specificity. Setting up your resume in terms of skills rather than chronologically can be a good way to demonstrate that your skills are relevant to the position to which you are applying. However, I would also recommend (and other panelists may agree or disagree) having a chronological list of positions/companies/dates either before or after your skills based resume. Sometimes a resume set up non chronologically can mistakenly imply to a recruiter that your employment has been spotty or that you have been a ‘job jumper’. I will also say that chronological resumes are the more mainstream type and, as such, right or wrong, tend to be easier for a recruiter/hiring manager to understand.
Measured Accomplishments
The short answer is yes, you should have measured accomplishments in your resume. The longer answer begs another question – how can I quantify qualitative work? The majority of us don’t have numbers to back up our skills, experience and accomplishments. Instead, you can take the approach of answering some unasked questions: What did you do in this position that you are most proud of? What did you do that you were praised for or promoted for? What responsibilities did you have that were not trusted to anyone else? What did you discover/create/conclude that no one else did? Examples may include items like: Was the only intern in company’s history to be hired on full time; Created first training program on X subject after determining company need; Through research project, discovered X; Introduced company to new document imaging program which streamlined filing and organizational processes. Almost ANYTHING can be turned into an ‘I DID IT!’ statement.
Hiring from Academia
As I’ve mentioned in a previous email, my company often hires researchers for non-financial positions. Often, we have candidates with academic backgrounds for both this and other types of positions. We have hired former academics into our corporate setting and we have turned down former academics. In my experience, the key to success in landing a position in a corporate or non-profit setting (government is a mystery to me too, so maybe Andrea can address that) is proving through your resume/interview that you ‘get it’. Getting it means you understand there are differences between being in an academic setting and an office setting. I’ve never worked in an academic setting, so if I were to try to make the transition, I would want to talk to folks in academia and find out what it’s like: the culture, the politics, the workflow, the relationships, etc. When I have interviewed people moving from a different work setting (whether they are moving from academia, non-profit, government, freelancing…) I ask the question, “What do you think will be the biggest differences between your current work environment and this environment?” and “What would be the biggest challenge for you in making that transition?”. The bottom line is that there ARE differences and the recruiter/hiring manager will want to know that you get that. It doesn’t mean you have to know the ins and outs of the water cooler protocol, but showing that you understand there are differences makes a point.
A great question for you, as a candidate, to ask (and this is gutsy, because you have to have a good rebuttal) is “What concerns do you have about me transitioning into this position?” If the answer is that you haven’t worked in a corporate setting, be able to explain why you will be able to be successful in the transition!
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Non-compete clauses
Question from E.C.
When evaluating/negotiating for a job, I wonder if the guests could address what’s reasonable to expect in terms of a “non-compete clause” (I’m sure they can explain better, but as I understand it: an agreement when accepting a job that when you leave that firm you won’t work for a competitor/in the same field for a certain amount of time).
Obviously when you’re focused on getting a job you’re not thinking ahead to what happens when you leave that one, but I’ve had friends who were surprised to read the fine print and find out that they wouldn’t be able to work in their field within the same state or other really onerous sounding terms.
Are there guidelines as to what’s reasonable to expect, and if that something that’s typically negotiable or set company policy for all hires?
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Response from Elaine
Most non-competes directly relate to bringing customers/clients with you to your next company and depending on the non-compete, it could encompass competitors. The strength of the non-compete relates to the impact your leaving a company would have. Please understand non-competes are extremely hard to enforce and can be very time consuming so most companies tend to let it slide unless there will be a fairly large impact to their business.
We have had consultants leave, try to take 5 or 6 employees with them to create their own consulting company, using our clients. This is probably one of the only times we have actually enforced a non-compete agreement in order to block them from using our clients against us. I have a friend who worked in the mortgage industry who had an employee who was stealing mortgage leads and selling them to other companies - that person ended up choosing to buy out their non-compete as opposed to being prosecuted by the law - $150,000 was the prices he had to pay.
Regardless, of what the non-compete is for, at my company our non-competes are required and non-negotiable. The same non-compete applies to a CFO and a Global Account manager in sales as it does to the executive assistant. We require that the non-compete be signed within 30 days of employment or they are required to leave the site. We have had people try to change verbiage, add in their own words, but so far the only person who has changed the non-compete is our labor attorney - who updates it only based on labor laws. And to date...no one has declined an offer based on having to sign the non-compete.
I'm sure this is different for each company and each industry.
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Response from F.L.
A quick comment: the California Supreme Court recently invalidated non-compete clauses (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080808-california-supreme-court-strikes-down-noncompete-clauses.html) in most situations. This decision will presumably end up influencing Ninth Circuit rulings, which includes AK, AZ, HI, ID, MT, NV, OR, WA.